Insurgents Hack U.S. Drones • Hacker News Board

Re: Insurgents Hack U.S. Drones

#121

Post by blhack » Thu, Dec 17, 2009, 8:30 PM UTC

ThinkWriteMute wrote: post #35

noonespecial wrote: post #25

Part of the problem is that the military awards contracts that are sometimes decades long. What was "good enough" security in 1990 is not looking so hot 20 years on. The US military machine may not perform as well as it has in the past in the new era of betas, hotfixes and patches. I will not be at all surprised when insurgent "rc-plane" drones start showing up with cell phones, arduinos, grenades and duct-tape.

It's dreadfully easy to shop build a rocket, especially in America where places like Radioshack exist.

I think your post got caught in some sort of time dilation field from the 80s or something...

Radioshacks only sell cellphones (mostly) now. :(

Re: Insurgents Hack U.S. Drones

#122

Post by pyre » Thu, Dec 17, 2009, 9:12 PM UTC

jpwagner wrote: post #120

pyre wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was addressing the last thing that you said.

quit these goading, troll tactics please there is no contradiction: yes "real" hackers, yes spend money, no don't say "just another million" sheesh

Where did I say 'just another million?' From where I stand, you seem to be opposed to spending more money on something to make it work, and I'm arguing that by agreeing with having hackers hack on the device doesn't fix it on it's own. It still costs money. Whether it's "just another million" or "just another $100,000" is irrelevant. The thing won't fix itself for free and at $20 million a pop it's a waste of money if the thing is broken.

Note: I'm not goading, trolling or whatever it is you think I'm doing. This thread is a conversation, and I'm responding to what you said.

Re: Insurgents Hack U.S. Drones

#123

Post by joe_the_user » Thu, Dec 17, 2009, 9:18 PM UTC

Whether this particular mistake was avoidable or not, the event raises bigger issues.

The military is building more and more lethal, radio-controlled robots.

No networked device can be guaranteed to be secure. Computers have been hacked since they existed. The hacking of satellites is endemic. A civilian hacker was supposedly holding a military satellite hostage a while back.

Thus this strategy makes it likely that hackers will get the ability to command a lethal device sooner or later.

The risks of this might be worth the rewards in terms of avoiding casualties, projecting power, etc.

But there hasn't been much public discussion of the choices that are involved here. There should be.

Re: Insurgents Hack U.S. Drones

#124

Post by jpwagner » Thu, Dec 17, 2009, 9:42 PM UTC

pyre wrote: post #122

jpwagner wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

quit these goading, troll tactics please there is no contradiction: yes "real" hackers, yes spend money, no don't say "just another million" sheesh

Where did I say 'just another million?' From where I stand, you seem to be opposed to spending more money on something to make it work, and I'm arguing that by agreeing with having hackers hack on the device doesn't fix it on it's own. It still costs money. Whether it's "just another million" or "just another $100,000" is irrelevant. The thing won't fix itself for free and at $20 million a pop it's a waste of money i…

...and I'm responding to what you said

No, you're not, you're actually ignoring my words. Please stop.

Note: You have made one lifetime submission and it was flagged and marked 'dead.' I will not call you a troll, but please stop.

Re: Insurgents Hack U.S. Drones

#125

Post by alecco » Thu, Dec 17, 2009, 9:46 PM UTC

cabalamat wrote: post #99

alecco wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The gas jet propelled ones have max speed of 200mph, while predators have 135mph. Can't wait for some sort of anti-predator with EMP gun or something making the 5M investment look stupid :) [With some kick ass AI doing the find-kill, soldiers shouting "f * NPCs"] [Note: I know emp guns weight ~50kg]

Why bother with an EMP weapon, a rifle-calibre machine gun would do the job more efficiently.

Because an EMP gun would be so cool.

Re: Insurgents Hack U.S. Drones

#126

Post by gaius » Thu, Dec 17, 2009, 9:53 PM UTC

jedc wrote: post #84

KWD wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. My first thought when reading the article was "WTF? No encryption?". Would be interested in learning more about the company that makes these, and how something so obvious was not done.

If they were first deployed in the 1990's, the technology was developed in the 1980's. Easily deployable software to grab the signals out of the air was probably outside the realm of what seemed possible then. Why it hasn't been fixed since is shocking!

Easily deployable software to grab the signals out of the air was probably outside the realm of what seemed possible then

Not for the Russians it wasn't! Nor for the French, who will happily sell weapons to whoever wants them (as we Brits learnt in the Falklands War).

Re: Insurgents Hack U.S. Drones

#127

Post by pvandehaar » Thu, Dec 17, 2009, 10:00 PM UTC

atamyrat wrote: post #24

tsally wrote: post #6

I have a thought. How about next time the military just flies one of these things down to Defcon and lets people have a go. The hackers get a cool toy to play with a for a day and the military gets a free fairly sophisticated penetration test. I'm sure the flaw would have been found; instructions on how to intercept satellite data with about $100 worth of hardware have been floating around for years. I'll edit this p…

I played with sky grabbing few years back. Receiver you linked is set-top box, you need PCI receiver card, such as SkyStar ( http://www.technisat.com/index381f.html?nav=PC_products,en,7... ) No, you don't have to modify the receiver, card captures IP traffic just out of the box with right software. There was another free alternative to SkyGrabber that runs on Linux, but I can't recall the name now. edit: grammar edit…

If the Media found out that insurgents used Linux to hack military drones...

Re: Insurgents Hack U.S. Drones

#128

Post by rdtsc » Thu, Dec 17, 2009, 10:58 PM UTC

roc wrote: post #93

rarrrrrr wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is also an apt description of the relationship between the FDA and large pharmaceutical companies. Also, the USDA and large food companies. There are likely many more examples. It's a systemic problem of our structure of government.

The trick is: who better to run a military contractor than former military men? Who better to run a food company than someone who has worked in the USDA? These are natural career paths for those individuals that make perfect, natural sense and --in and of themselves-- aren't a real issue. The real issue is that our government can too easily reward individual companies or industry groups with hand-outs. If a single ge…

> Who better to run a food company than someone who has worked in the USDA?

Are you asking as the food company, or as the proverbial "concerned citizen?"

Because I would want the USDA to work for me, since I am paying my taxes. I want it to do its job and protect me from Kraft selling me salmonela infested cookie dough. It is hard for USDA to do that when they expect to be hired by Kraft and be payed large bonuses and salaries in the future.

> The real issue is that our government can too easily reward individual companies or industry groups with hand-outs.

The other serious problem is that individual companies can easily 'reward' (read 'bribe') their friends in high places so they can turn a blind eye and in turn harm the public.

I have the naive desire to have a government that would take care and protect its citizens. I don't have the time and the resources to carry a microscope and a bacterial toolkit to the grocery store when I buy meat or eggs. I expect to pay my taxes and USDA to do its job.

Re: Insurgents Hack U.S. Drones

#129

Post by elblanco » Thu, Dec 17, 2009, 11:46 PM UTC

malkia wrote: post #32

likpok wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The AK is more reliable because it is less accurate. The tolerances on the various mechanical parts are higher, but as a result they are looser.

AK is the Perl of the weapons. I had to use AK-47 for year (serving in the Bulgarian army). It was easy to clean, assemble, disassemble, but every weapon was a bit-off due to the production (or heavy usage, don't know). So to get good results you have to learn where your weapon strays.

They are also stupid easy to manufacture. The design has been copied numerous times as well. Basically, they are the Honda Civics of military weapons. Cheap, easy to use, reliable, easy and cheap to fix when they do break, and lasts forever.

I've seen AKs in 3rd world countries that were probably less than 20% original parts.

Re: Insurgents Hack U.S. Drones

#130

Post by barry-cotter » Fri, Dec 18, 2009, 12:14 AM UTC

rarrrrrr wrote: post #75

rdtsc wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The later is true. There is a large, high througput, revolving door between DoD and large contractors. Yesterday's generals are today's board members and C*Os of large defense contractors. When something is purchased, or a bid is chosen, it is often because of those conections not because a product is inherently better. The result is a lot of overpriced, under-performing equipment. The amount of waste is just ridicul…

This is also an apt description of the relationship between the FDA and large pharmaceutical companies. Also, the USDA and large food companies. There are likely many more examples. It's a systemic problem of our structure of government.

It's a systemic problem of our structure of government.

True but misleading. Regulatory capture is a feature of regulated industries full stop. It just happens faster when the players whether buyers or sellers are concentrated.