Show HN: Careers for people not going to college, built with Meteor • Hacker News Board

Re: Show HN: Careers for people not going to college, built with Meteor

#91

Post by morgante » Thu, Aug 06, 2015, 2:50 AM UTC

IkmoIkmo wrote: post #90

morgante wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$30k is right around the average college debt these days. $100k-150k is an extreme outlier from people who made the extraordinarily poor decision to attend expensive schools which weren't prestigious enough to provide adequate financial aid.

Well consider that a normal person going to university and paying a low amount of $1k on living expenses (i.e. equivalence of living on a $12k annual salary), for a four-year university. Now imagine he has to go to university full time (the fact full-time is rarely upheld says something about the economic difficulty of spending full-time on school). That means you spend all your disposable non-leisure time on school,…

I don't understand why you're doing a bottom-up analysis when the data on actual indebtedness is readily available and it's about $30k: http://ticas.org/posd/map-state-data

In actuality, I think even that statistic s overstated because it's the average debt of students with debt when 3/10 students graduate debt-free. Taking into account those with a debt of $0, the actual average debt is closer to $20k.

> This obviously isn't the outcome we want, and represents a huge waste.

Speak for yourself. I personally think it's entirely reasonable that people should work at least part-time to pay for their education and it's been happening for generations. I've personally worked full-time for most of university and definitely think it has enriched my education a lot more than joining some silly clubs or a sports team.

Re: Show HN: Careers for people not going to college, built with Meteor

#92

Post by jlarocco » Thu, Aug 06, 2015, 2:54 AM UTC

delecti wrote: post #61

jlarocco wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. When people say degrees are overrated and there are too many people with "useless" degrees, they're not talking about science and engineering degrees. Skipping a degree in CS is just making things harder for yourself. Best case scenario you'll just spend that 4 years working up your salary to what you would have had in the first place with a degree.

> Best case scenario you'll just spend that 4 years working up your salary to what you would have had in the first place with a degree. If the options are 4 years making okay money or 4 years likely accumulating debt, after which you're at the same income level either way, why would anyone in their right mind go to college? I'm not saying you're entirely wrong, I just think that that's not the best way to highlight i…

> If the options are 4 years making okay money or 4 years likely accumulating debt, after which you're at the same income level either way, why would anyone in their right mind go to college?

I can only speak to my experience, but most of my friends in college worked while they were in school, and eventually got decent paying internships their junior and senior years. I think most of us had to take out loans, but I know I was able to pay mine off less than 2 years out of school, and I think most people did. 4 years in school isn't necessarily accumulating a lot of debt. And it wouldn't surprise me if the person with the CS degree still enough extra money to account for student loans.

Of course that's assuming the person in question is pretty smart (and they better be if they're considering skipping college) and can get at least some kind of financial aid or scholarship money. It's also assuming they're not insisting on a big name school.

Re: Show HN: Careers for people not going to college, built with Meteor

#93

Post by eropple » Thu, Aug 06, 2015, 3:27 AM UTC

morgante wrote: post #91

IkmoIkmo wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well consider that a normal person going to university and paying a low amount of $1k on living expenses (i.e. equivalence of living on a $12k annual salary), for a four-year university. Now imagine he has to go to university full time (the fact full-time is rarely upheld says something about the economic difficulty of spending full-time on school). That means you spend all your disposable non-leisure time on school,…

I don't understand why you're doing a bottom-up analysis when the data on actual indebtedness is readily available and it's about $30k: http://ticas.org/posd/map-state-data In actuality, I think even that statistic s overstated because it's the average debt of students with debt when 3/10 students graduate debt-free. Taking into account those with a debt of $0, the actual average debt is closer to $20k. > This obviou…

Now you're going the other direction. People used to pay for all of their education from part-time work; costs have gone up, and even $30K is a lot for a degree. I'm very lucky in that I could pay that off quickly, but I know many people who graduated with under $50K in debt who will literally take a decade to pay it off.

And I wouldn't dismiss "silly clubs" or sports teams in terms of turning out well-rounded individuals, which is the entire point of a university to begin with.

Re: Show HN: Careers for people not going to college, built with Meteor

#94

Post by eshvk » Thu, Aug 06, 2015, 3:49 AM UTC

volaski wrote: post #54

xiaoma wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money opens those doors even wider. Once you hit a certain level of financial independence, not only is it easy to visit wherever you choose, but permanent residency and even citizenship often become much more straightforward as well.

No one is saying go to college and forget about money. I don't know if you're saying this based on what you heard over the shoulder but I actually do know a thing or two about buying citizenship and green card with money. It is FAAAAAAAR easier to just go to college than become rich enough not to care about these things. Most college grads will never accumulate enough money in their youth to buy green card from count…

Agree.

- Most (all?) work visas in the United States require a degree in the field of specialization.

- The "buying green card" program requires one to invest at least a million dollars and create at least ten jobs for two years before you get one. [1]

[1] http://www.uscis.gov/eb-5

Re: Show HN: Careers for people not going to college, built with Meteor

#95

Post by sdybskiy » Thu, Aug 06, 2015, 3:49 AM UTC

vehementi wrote: post #88

App borken?

Nope, might have been pushing updates. Check now!

Re: Show HN: Careers for people not going to college, built with Meteor

#96

Post by unethical_ban » Thu, Aug 06, 2015, 4:28 AM UTC

unimpressive wrote: post #77

zig wrote: post #3

For people nearing the end of high-school, please go to college. I don't have a degree and have been extremely lucky; I managed to get into middle-management and have been successful. The problem is that I'm not as "portable" as I would be with a degree - in other words, a layoff or termination could put my lifestyle in jeopardy. As such, I am going back to school at 29. Get it over with :)

Four years is quite a bit of time getting things over with. Everybody likes to talk about the memories of going to college and how much I should expect to enjoy it. I don't expect that, I expect to be absolutely miserable for four years. A more fanatical past version of me would almost rather die. And on a certain level I think there's definitely a spite involved here. I know that going will permanently invalidate me…

I do believe that University should not be required for many fields which currently do.

I also believe University costs too much for many, and that textbooks are an outright scam.

I also believe a broad post-secondary education is a wonderful thing to have, and that if you can do undergrad full time (doing a real "job" as little as is required to supplement a beer/computer fund), you'll find that having your full time "job" being to learn new things and meet new people is an amazing gift. Throw in the opportunities of studying abroad (that I didn't take advantage of - do it in the first two years) and University is a great experience.

Re: Show HN: Careers for people not going to college, built with Meteor

#97

Post by jschwartzi » Thu, Aug 06, 2015, 4:39 AM UTC

antidamage wrote: post #29

zig wrote: post #3

For people nearing the end of high-school, please go to college. I don't have a degree and have been extremely lucky; I managed to get into middle-management and have been successful. The problem is that I'm not as "portable" as I would be with a degree - in other words, a layoff or termination could put my lifestyle in jeopardy. As such, I am going back to school at 29. Get it over with :)

I'm 37. At my age a degree is completely irrelevant if you have the skill set. In fact, ten years ago I was approached by a university to start my Master's degree, with the missing Bachelor's degree being credited through time spent working in my industry at the time. The reality of education in America is that it's an expensive tickbox. It verges on being a racket. While you don't want to be the lone rebel being cru…

There's a good 17 years gap that a non-graduate would have to fill. How did you spend your time after you finished high school?

Re: Show HN: Careers for people not going to college, built with Meteor

#98

Post by midniteslayr » Thu, Aug 06, 2015, 4:42 AM UTC

cryptojuice wrote: post #4

midniteslayr wrote: post #2

As a self-taught developer who has had serious success without a college degree, I'm curious. But, why are there only Canadian companies?

Also a self-taught developer here. I'm not sure how old you are, but do you worry about how not having a degree might affect your chances of finding work later in your career?

I'm 30 with about 8 years of professional development experience under my belt (including a couple of nice contracts with some respectable companies). Being self-taught has both helped and hindered my career/job searches of late. It's helped get me interviews, because recruiters see the years of experience, and gain some side contracts. It's hindered my career/job searches because everyone assumes I've got a comp sci degree during the interview. I get asked questions that are very specific comp sci questions, and I don't know how to answer them, even though I may have used those concepts in the past.

So, to answer your question, Yes ... and no. I do worry, but I hope to be moving toward a management position (or running my own business) instead of being a code monkey for the rest of my life.

Re: Show HN: Careers for people not going to college, built with Meteor

#99

Post by jschwartzi » Thu, Aug 06, 2015, 4:43 AM UTC

IkmoIkmo wrote: post #90

morgante wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$30k is right around the average college debt these days. $100k-150k is an extreme outlier from people who made the extraordinarily poor decision to attend expensive schools which weren't prestigious enough to provide adequate financial aid.

Well consider that a normal person going to university and paying a low amount of $1k on living expenses (i.e. equivalence of living on a $12k annual salary), for a four-year university. Now imagine he has to go to university full time (the fact full-time is rarely upheld says something about the economic difficulty of spending full-time on school). That means you spend all your disposable non-leisure time on school,…

When I was in school I didn't take a single vacation or "modest fun lifestyle" trip of any sort. I worked when I wasn't in class, and I was in class when I wasn't working. Anything I had I had had since I had graduated high school. I barely got out with about $30k in debt and a fairly worthless degree in Physics.

Re: Show HN: Careers for people not going to college, built with Meteor

#100

Post by joshmn » Thu, Aug 06, 2015, 4:43 AM UTC

SomeCallMeTim wrote: post #84

joshmn wrote: post #82

I went to school and dropped out twice — Caltech and Georgetown. I think I maybe have 20 credit hours under my belt? I don't even know. I'm now 24. I've done quite okay for myself. On paper, I'm not that appealing — non-violent/non-drug related felonies, dropped out of two very highly-regarded schools ("there must be something wrong here"), and some baggage from when I was a child ("mommy/daddy issues") that still sn…

If money is an issue, I totally second the idea of 2 years community college plus 2 years of university. In my case, I went to a state university (which was a UC, so not too shabby) and no one ever questioned "graduated 19xx from UC San Diego" on my resume. No one cares where you went for the first two years (possible exception: Graduate school? No idea). Though honestly people don't care at this point whether I went…

If no one cares where you went for the first two years, why not take the cheaper option at the expense of the "college experience"?

I never got said college experience obviously, so I probably don't know what I'm talking about. But in terms of value, spending 1/5th of uni/state school per semester and getting the same thing? I'll take it.