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Show HN: Careers for people not going to college, built with Meteor

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Re: Show HN: Careers for people not going to college, built with Meteor

#81
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

* But pick a major that will pay for itself, and try not to rack up $50k in student loans.

> * But pick a major that will pay for itself, and try not to rack up $50k in student loans I think this is a societal issue rather than an education issue. We're so quick to encourage people to achieve a degree in whatever makes them happy, even say Art History or Medieval European History, knowing full well that the prospects of gaining a decent paying job after school is practically zero. How does that Art History…

How does that Art History major repay a $30K student loan when they can realistically only get a $30K a year salaried job?

Thinking about it from a different angle, how does a CS major repay a $30k student loan if they were under pressure to choose a lucrative major, hated programming to the point of never getting good at it, and couldn't conjure up the motivation to compete with the kids who were in it for fun?

In addition, for a lot of kids, a technical major isn't an option because they don't have the math background.

Now, do they major in art history anyway? That's a whole 'nother ball o' wax.

Re: Show HN: Careers for people not going to college, built with Meteor

#82
I went to school and dropped out twice — Caltech and Georgetown. I think I maybe have 20 credit hours under my belt? I don't even know.

I'm now 24. I've done quite okay for myself. On paper, I'm not that appealing — non-violent/non-drug related felonies, dropped out of two very highly-regarded schools ("there must be something wrong here"), and some baggage from when I was a child ("mommy/daddy issues") that still sneak up on me every now and then, which have just as occasionally impacted my professional life.

But I made it. I'm a rare breed and I'm thankful. If I would have added a college degree to my life's work, it would be one less strike against me. A strike that I wouldn't have to prove myself for or against.

My advice: Anyone who is at or nearing the end of their high school career, please go to college. Two years at a community college, and then two years wherever you want to go. ~$70k and you're done.

While you're on HN, you're in a social circle of where it's not abnormal for people to be successful without a college degree. In the real world, however, this number is much slimmer than it's made out to be here.

That said, don't think that all you need is education either. A diploma is a piece of paper that shows you followed a curriculum, bought someone a new Mercedes, and slaved away for countless hours on end. Your battle doesn't end there — experience in the real world goes a lot further than you think it does.

Re: Show HN: Careers for people not going to college, built with Meteor

#83
post #3

For people nearing the end of high-school, please go to college. I don't have a degree and have been extremely lucky; I managed to get into middle-management and have been successful. The problem is that I'm not as "portable" as I would be with a degree - in other words, a layoff or termination could put my lifestyle in jeopardy. As such, I am going back to school at 29. Get it over with :)

Four years is quite a bit of time getting things over with. Everybody likes to talk about the memories of going to college and how much I should expect to enjoy it. I don't expect that, I expect to be absolutely miserable for four years. A more fanatical past version of me would almost rather die. And on a certain level I think there's definitely a spite involved here. I know that going will permanently invalidate me…

As another person who detests classes, exams, etc, I can feel your pain. University/College is useful for computer science, though. One of the problems in industry is that there are a huge number of cowboy coders who dismiss all of the important things they learned (or not!) at school. The number of times I've run across people who said things like, "Statistics is a complete waste of time", and then "benchmarked" their app by running it once...

So, basically, what I'm saying is that on the one hand working in industry will give you important skills that are hard to learn anywhere else. You need to learn to read and write code, and you have to learn idiomatic ways of programming, and you have to do a lot of it. You need to learn how to work with others and how to effectively prioritise work. You can't learn this at school. On the other hand, you will be in an environment which may stunt your growth because it is often dominated by people who think that being able to write code is the only valuable thing a programmer needs.

School is an academic environment with (hopefully!) a focus on academic goals. You will need these things to claw your way beyond the mediocrity that pervades our industry. It's not that you can't learn it anywhere else, but it is often hard to understand what is important and what isn't unless you can surround yourself with people who have an academic focus.

I would gouge my eyes out before I would go back to school again, but I am very grateful that I did go. I encourage you to either go to school or devote yourself to finding alternative means of learning all of the academic things you will need. Doing it by yourself is much more difficult, but by no means impossible.

Re: Show HN: Careers for people not going to college, built with Meteor

#84
post #82

I went to school and dropped out twice — Caltech and Georgetown. I think I maybe have 20 credit hours under my belt? I don't even know. I'm now 24. I've done quite okay for myself. On paper, I'm not that appealing — non-violent/non-drug related felonies, dropped out of two very highly-regarded schools ("there must be something wrong here"), and some baggage from when I was a child ("mommy/daddy issues") that still sn…

If money is an issue, I totally second the idea of 2 years community college plus 2 years of university.

In my case, I went to a state university (which was a UC, so not too shabby) and no one ever questioned "graduated 19xx from UC San Diego" on my resume.

No one cares where you went for the first two years (possible exception: Graduate school? No idea).

Though honestly people don't care at this point whether I went to college at all -- but I can't say for sure whether I would be where I am today without the degree.

Re: Show HN: Careers for people not going to college, built with Meteor

#85
My undergraduate degree was math. Looking back, I find it really hard to imagine how I could have learnt all that without going to college. I just don't think it's possible to recreate that combination of extrinsic motivation and interactive learning. maybe moocs can do this but I suspect they fall short on both accounts.

Now I'm able to learn more independently (e.g. type theory and HoTT) but it's still very difficult and I don't think I could do it without my undergraduate and higher degrees.

I see a lot of posts on hn asking the lines of "how can I learn X on my own". Without at least some formal education in college math or cs, I suspect the answer may be "it's not possible "

Re: Show HN: Careers for people not going to college, built with Meteor

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my personal experience a solid work history is much better than a degree. Once you have it the value of a degree decreases significantly. Its almost entirely redundant. The only problem is you often need the degree to get the work history. I've also noticed as I start working with people who have their Masters and some with PHDs that people take me seriously. It's like... I must know what I'm talking about. How el…

Not having a degree does lock you out of some opportunities where HR uses it as a binary checkbox. We can go on and on here about how such policies are stupid and how you wouldn't really want to work at a place like that anyway, but the fact of the matter is not having a degree closes doors. In that sense, there is value to having one.

That is true but if you have a good work history, in most cases nobody will really care where the degree is from, what you majored in, or what your grades were, etc. Only that you have a degree to satisfy that checkbox.

Re: Show HN: Careers for people not going to college, built with Meteor

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Four years is quite a bit of time getting things over with. Everybody likes to talk about the memories of going to college and how much I should expect to enjoy it. I don't expect that, I expect to be absolutely miserable for four years. A more fanatical past version of me would almost rather die. And on a certain level I think there's definitely a spite involved here. I know that going will permanently invalidate me…

As another person who detests classes, exams, etc, I can feel your pain. University/College is useful for computer science, though. One of the problems in industry is that there are a huge number of cowboy coders who dismiss all of the important things they learned (or not!) at school. The number of times I've run across people who said things like, "Statistics is a complete waste of time", and then "benchmarked" the…

>devote yourself to finding alternative means of learning all of the academic things you will need.

Definitely part of the roadmap. The sort of person you described here:

>The number of times I've run across people who said things like, "Statistics is a complete waste of time", and then "benchmarked" their app by running it once...

Bugs me immensely. One of the barriers I've had trouble piercing, and that wouldn't really go away in a more traditional academic context is how to learn the 'language' of math used in academic computer science papers.

Re: Show HN: Careers for people not going to college, built with Meteor

#89
post #78
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At my age a degree is completely irrelevant if you have the skill set. This is a dangerous thing to say without any qualifiers. It depends on the industry, economic conditions in your area, type/size of company you want to work for, etc. I've known a couple individuals who had the skills and 20+ years of experience who lost jobs at floundering companies and weren't able to find anything relevant due to a lack of a…

But that's madness! You'd be great for this job but we can't hire you because you don't have a piece of paper? How long can these self inflicted meaningless restrictions continue?

I agree.

Although sometimes there are legal requirements. Like a lawyer in a law firm, don't know how it is in the US (probably the same) but here there's no way you can practice law and represent someone in a court without a master's legal degree. And starting your own firm requires a degree above that. Although you can start a legal advisory firm without it.

I appreciate you may still think that legal requirement is madness but I can imagine there are some jobs where you want a government to accredit a university's degree, as a form of consumer protection and regulation. For example say a doctor, or a financial advisor, you may want to have 'audited' and given some level of quality assurance, which is essentially what government-accredited degrees aim to prove.

What would be madness is if that same government did not try to accommodate for people with degree-equivalent experience to get their experiences accredited with a formal degree at no-cost or low-cost. For example if you're a self-taught engineer who, due to work experience, could actually finish engineering courses without going to any classes because of self-education, then you ought to be able to (after demonstrating said experience) pay for the mere administrative cost of examination (i.e. $50 per exam) and take all examinations in a year for less than $1k and get your degree. Without spending years, going to classes, and paying tens of thousands for teaching you don't need and won't make use of.

This isn't always easy but separating examination from teaching in schools is something I think we haven't explored enough. You can do a GED or GMAT without enrolling in any classes, and just taking exams, and if self-taught or skilled by experience somehow, then the test is just an accreditation of your skills. Yet we don't have equivalents for advanced degrees. It's not easy to set this up of course, but I think we ought to try more. Although for legal professions it exist, the bar exam afaik doesn't require you to ever have gone to law school, if you happen to be able to take it due to e.g. working in a legal office and somehow picking up everything in an assistant role.

Re: Show HN: Careers for people not going to college, built with Meteor

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much under $30k were you? $30k is still a lot of money, even if it's not the even larger $100k-$150k number more and more people are reporting. What were your average monthly expenses including the summer months, and did you work at all? If you're going to be indentured, then at least indenture yourself for an engineering degree. $30k isn't hard to pay off within a year or two of full time employment, and even $1…

$30k is right around the average college debt these days. $100k-150k is an extreme outlier from people who made the extraordinarily poor decision to attend expensive schools which weren't prestigious enough to provide adequate financial aid.

Well consider that a normal person going to university and paying a low amount of $1k on living expenses (i.e. equivalence of living on a $12k annual salary), for a four-year university.

Now imagine he has to go to university full time (the fact full-time is rarely upheld says something about the economic difficulty of spending full-time on school). That means you spend all your disposable non-leisure time on school, either going to class or doing readings, homework, research. In other words: not employed.

That means right off the bat for a 4 year university you're spending $48k, while your income is 0. In other words the mere opportunity cost of a 4 year university instead of working full-time, is nearly $50k.

Then add to that the average tuition annually is $9k at a public local university. (private avg is 3x that, and out of state is 2x that. So the $9k figure is below average, basically the average of the cheapest option). Even with a 50% scholarship you're still looking at roughly $20k in tuition for the 4 years. Then add some for books and such, but whatever let's make it $20k. You're now at $70k.

Now imagine that the average student loan interest rate is around 5%, on the average of $70k for 4 years. And then consider that $1k living expenses is relatively low, and $9k tuition isn't atypical.

So we're now getting close to $80k without the rounding errors and we're not living any amazing lifestyle here at $1k a month in living expenses to pay for rent, insurance, food etc, on a 50% scholarship.

The fact that studying full-time actually entails for most people spending part-time on school, and part-time on work, to offset this financial picture a bit, says something about the economic feasibility of simply dedicating years of time to nothing but study. But even then with a part time job making a few hundred bucks (e.g. $10 an hour flipping burgers 2 full days out of 5 working days a week gets you to $160 a week pre-tax extra), a lot of that goes straight into a modest fun lifestyle above your $12k a year expenses, like a spring break, a college trip, or a semester abroad.

Anyway I don't mean to say that $80k is typical, as you said it's much lower, the average nowadays is actually $35k, nothing close to $80k let alone $100-150k. But I think it's important to appreciate that it's just $35k because of concessions, which means for example not going for certain studies cause it'll be way above the average (e.g. medicine at $100k+), or not dedicating yourself to education because you need to spend 2 full days working part-time besides your studies (some of which you simply have to put in the numbers or you'll certainly fail) while not burning out doing this for years in a row.

So I do believe the $35k figure may diminish that the financial burden of college is a lot harder than the number indicates on face value. To exaggerate what I mean with an analogy it's a bit like observing an extremely dangerous area and seeing very little crime and concluding 'the crime rate is low', when underneath it may hide the fact that people stopped going outside, that the city became unliveable because of this and that there's actually huge problem. In the same way I'm seeing in my own environment many of my peers spend more time working than studying, while enrolled, still graduate with tens of thousands in debt, just for the piece of paper but without having had the ability to fully dedicate multiple years to their craft. This obviously isn't the outcome we want, and represents a huge waste.

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