Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’ • Hacker News Board

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#131

Post by Asbostos » Wed, Aug 05, 2015, 5:33 AM UTC

marricks wrote: post #78

cwbrandsma wrote: post #42

I'm mixed on this. For background, I'm from Idaho and the son of a dairyman in this state. I know the intimate details of how this law came about, I know the dairyman whose operation was filmed, and I've seen the film. From the viewpoint of the guys in ag, their concern is more about the lies that got spilled out over the initial film, and the death threats that came afterwards. Couple of side facts: * some of the em…

I'm a vegan (ergo completely opposed to your industry), but I get where you're coming from. It's your livelihood, and it's probably been your family's lively hood. Here's the thing though, the vast majority of where the US gets it's milk from is less of a farm nowadays and more of a factory, that's why milk production efficiency has shot up in the past 100 years --because we started treated these animals more and mor…

Your argument about lifespan doesn't seem to make sense. Every species has some lifespan. Many are shorter than dairy cows. How do you decide what the "proper" lifespan is? Is it the lifespan of its ancestors? How many generations back do you go? Go too far and it may become shorter again. At the end of the day, a cow doesn't worry "oh I'm only going to live 4 years instead of the 20 that those lucky wild cows used to have".

I think you're invoking a human emotion about dying and having a short life which is entirely meaningless in the context of cows.

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#132

Post by yellowapple » Wed, Aug 05, 2015, 5:33 AM UTC

cweagans wrote: post #121

yellowapple wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you trying to suggest that Idaho is part of the "south"? Or are you suggesting that Idaho is sufficiently-far north for southerners to be equivalent to Alaska?

No, I'm suggesting that the ridiculous things we hear from Alaska (think about it's relative location to the US) are sort of like the ridiculous things we hear from Idaho (comparing it's relative location to the South).

Ah, I see. Carry on, then; I was simply confused :)

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#133

Post by marricks » Wed, Aug 05, 2015, 5:40 AM UTC

hueving wrote: post #128

marricks wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you think cows are, mindless? There is are wild populations of cows that do just fine, here's one[1]. Sure we helped guide their evolution a bit so they are kinder to us and have more desirable traits from our perspective, but they still have all the instincts and intelligence to do alright in the wild, not that I think they should be. My ideal solution would be a steep decline in dairy production with a coin…

You linked to cows on an island that have no predators. That's meaningless in the context of cows from Idaho (the context of this thread) where they have to deal with the predators. Your assertion that their life in a farm is worse than a life in fear of predators is largely unfounded and seems to be based on "no humans = humane" doublethink.

I didn't say they should be all let free immediately, you created some false dichotomy to aid in your construction of a straw-man to argue with. I answered your question and told you what I thought was my ideal, steep reduction in production until it's gone.

We choose to put all these cows into the world (even though we don't need them) and give them shitty conditions. The onus is on us just stop the cycle and let them drastically decrease in numbers and die out so we don't keep on bringing million more into existence.

Are you considering what your arguing? You think that life trapped in a container where you're forced to become impregnated every year and have your baby stolen within a few days after it's born is better than living free for a time with your herd? That view is divorced from reality. Mountain lions may rip your throat out, but they don't enslave your species and put you in such confined controlled environments that the only meaningful decision you can make is which way to turn your head.

Cows are herbivores, but just like us the extent of their desire doesn't end at getting food and sleeping. They're social creatures who care for their young and live in groups. Us putting them in cages and forcing them to produce milk 24 / 7 in not how they want to be.

EDIT:

Your argument about there being no natural predators is really pointless. I never said they should immediately be set free, that's a juvenile perspective. I do want you to understand you need to try and support your claims and do research, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Feral_cattle.

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#134

Post by Asbostos » Wed, Aug 05, 2015, 5:40 AM UTC

adrusi wrote: post #117

erikpukinskis wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, nonverbal consent is definitely possible, although it is considered a weaker standard than verbal consent, which is why humans often advocate for that. There is a difference between leaving a creature in open space with a herd around them, teeth and hooves available for "speech", and locking a creature to a rack where they are alone and powerless to dissuade penetration.

I don't know how you can apply human attitudes toward sex and consent to other animals so biologically distinct. I'm not going to argue that cows are naturally "consent" to sex at any time in any form, but there's an argument (see below) to be made that supports that extreme more strongly than the idea that human sexuality is applicable to cows. I'm not entirely sure how to research this, but it needs actual research…

You're describing K-strategists vs R-strategists, which I don't think has quite that relationship to position on the food chain, but there still are species that do more of one that the other. Your point does make sense to me that those concerned more with quantity would be less emotionally harmed by unwanted sex. Not a biologist either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R/K_selection_theory

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#135

Post by nitrogen » Wed, Aug 05, 2015, 5:46 AM UTC

cwbrandsma wrote: post #118

emcrazyone wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"he has +300 employees, you can't personally monitor everyone all of the time" This is complete and utter bullshit. The whole animal cruelty issue has been in the news for years and to say you did nothing to investigate your own operations or do anything to monitor the activity is negligence. I saw the video too! I have a friend in the Dairy business with around 150 employees. His entire operation is video monitored…

My operations? I'm not a dairyman, those weren't my cows. I supposed I could stick a camera on my chicken coop.

"You" in that comment was probably intended to be the colloquial analogue of the third-person pronoun "one", rather than the second-person pronoun referring directly to you, the original commenter.

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#136

Post by Asbostos » Wed, Aug 05, 2015, 5:54 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #61

betenoire wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand your distinction.

Referencing "pure corporate protectionism" and "corporate greed" understates how much responsibility the electorate bears for these laws. It paints an easy but misleading narrative: that the problem is just some big agricultural corps throwing around lobbying dollars, when in reality you're talking about a very broad cross-section of the population whose livelihood is tied up with those corporate interests and who su…

Indeed. Lobbying isn't the fault of the lobbyists or the politicians. It's the fault of the voters. Ultimately the blame for consistently bad laws lies at the feet of the people in the electorate. If we focussed more on individual responsibility instead of blaming someone else (politician, "corporations", etc.) we might start to see progress. Or we might just get in a big fight having our voting decisions challenged.

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#137

Post by Jweb_Guru » Wed, Aug 05, 2015, 6:13 AM UTC

CamperBob2 wrote: post #129

Jweb_Guru wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are rather real questions around whether synthetic meat and dairy are going to be cheaper than the real thing, particularly when you factor in externalities like energy consumption. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you can do it economically, and so far nobody's demonstrated that in this case (unless I missed a very recent development). If it can't be, the meat industry (and consumers) are unlikel…

Have you looked at how much food, water, energy, equipment, and space it takes to raise livestock? It's insane.

I'm well aware of how insane livestock costs are. Unfortunately, synthetic food costs are even more insane (and last time I checked, most depend on existing animal products anyway: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_meat#Challenges--take a look at the existing culture medium candidates, keeping in mind that fetal bovine serum is made from cattle blood): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_vitro_meat#Economic. Note that the person saying that it will be cost-competitive in ten years has a pretty vested interest in that being the case.

I'd be particularly wary of anyone citing vertical farms as being a cost saver: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_farming#Problems.

To be clear, it's possible that these problems are surmountable. But frankly, it would be a hell of a lot cheaper (both economically and from an environmental standpoint) to change our dietary habits; meat with every meal is going to be costly no matter what.

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#138

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Aug 05, 2015, 6:42 AM UTC

marricks wrote: post #126

hueving wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is your idealistic outcome? All of these cows are released into the wild and are killed within one to two generations by wolves or mountain lions? The cows that exist now are essentially useless without farmers. If you are ethically bound with them, how do you come to terms with the terror they will live through until they die?

What do you think cows are, mindless? There is are wild populations of cows that do just fine, here's one[1]. Sure we helped guide their evolution a bit so they are kinder to us and have more desirable traits from our perspective, but they still have all the instincts and intelligence to do alright in the wild, not that I think they should be. My ideal solution would be a steep decline in dairy production with a coin…

[deleted]

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#139

Post by bayesianhorse » Wed, Aug 05, 2015, 6:45 AM UTC

emcrazyone wrote: post #106

cwbrandsma wrote: post #42

I'm mixed on this. For background, I'm from Idaho and the son of a dairyman in this state. I know the intimate details of how this law came about, I know the dairyman whose operation was filmed, and I've seen the film. From the viewpoint of the guys in ag, their concern is more about the lies that got spilled out over the initial film, and the death threats that came afterwards. Couple of side facts: * some of the em…

"he has +300 employees, you can't personally monitor everyone all of the time" This is complete and utter bullshit. The whole animal cruelty issue has been in the news for years and to say you did nothing to investigate your own operations or do anything to monitor the activity is negligence. I saw the video too! I have a friend in the Dairy business with around 150 employees. His entire operation is video monitored…

Exactly. If +300 employees are too many to be effectively supervised by himself, he should consider hiring "supervisors" ...

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#140

Post by bayesianhorse » Wed, Aug 05, 2015, 6:48 AM UTC

Asbostos wrote: post #131

marricks wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a vegan (ergo completely opposed to your industry), but I get where you're coming from. It's your livelihood, and it's probably been your family's lively hood. Here's the thing though, the vast majority of where the US gets it's milk from is less of a farm nowadays and more of a factory, that's why milk production efficiency has shot up in the past 100 years --because we started treated these animals more and mor…

Your argument about lifespan doesn't seem to make sense. Every species has some lifespan. Many are shorter than dairy cows. How do you decide what the "proper" lifespan is? Is it the lifespan of its ancestors? How many generations back do you go? Go too far and it may become shorter again. At the end of the day, a cow doesn't worry "oh I'm only going to live 4 years instead of the 20 that those lucky wild cows used t…

The problem with these ages is that the cow's maximum productivity is reached around the sixth year. If she is culled before that, it's because of a medical issue which is not economically treatable.

If that happens all the time, then very probably these issues could be avoided by proper care. Breeding has a lot to do with it, also.