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Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

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Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#111
Even in 1906 when Upton Sinclair's expose on the meat industry, The Jungle, leading to a storm of national controversy, heaps of legislation, and the founding of the FDA - at no point do I recall in that book Sinclair mentioning anyone actually fucking the animals.

Anyway, that law sounds incredibly unconstitutional. Maybe there would have been a different outcome for the law if it made investigative journalism illegal in all cases and not just when you're specifically investigating pigfucking.

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#112

I'm mixed on this. For background, I'm from Idaho and the son of a dairyman in this state. I know the intimate details of how this law came about, I know the dairyman whose operation was filmed, and I've seen the film. From the viewpoint of the guys in ag, their concern is more about the lies that got spilled out over the initial film, and the death threats that came afterwards. Couple of side facts: * some of the em…

The single best way for these farmers, any farmers, to refute any / all concerns like this is to set up publicly-viewable, always on video feeds of their entire farm operations. Problem solved; assuming there isnt actually bad behavior. This is not expensive.

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't seem to directly reject any of my points, you haven't heard of rape racks, yet artificial insemination (AI) accounts for 75% of all animal agriculture pregnancies[1]. And sure, government subsidies specifically for the dairy industry may be floors as you say, but farm subsidies help ensure milk stays at close to half the cost it would be otherwise somehow[2]. As for selective breeding, I sure am impressed b…

...where is a workable solution in a capitalist system where the only thing we value out of these animals is the quantity of flesh and milk we get out of them? The whole debate will be moot as soon as synthetic meat and dairy tech comes online. People will say it's a revolting idea at first, but it will rapidly become socially unacceptable to harvest live animals once there's a viable alternative. I actually expect t…

Yep, that is a great workable solution without animal agriculture. I will be happy the day that "tissue" agriculture blows up, really hope they don't use that name though....

I think farms will see it as too much of a threat, and there isn't really applicable skills for going from a factory farm to vats or whatever the tissue is grown in.

content edit:

Ruminating on it a bit more, I see how you could be right for larger animal ag company. A dairy producer owns "So Delicious" coconut based yogurt and dairy alternatives, they could see it as a good way to diversify.

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#114

I'm mixed on this. For background, I'm from Idaho and the son of a dairyman in this state. I know the intimate details of how this law came about, I know the dairyman whose operation was filmed, and I've seen the film. From the viewpoint of the guys in ag, their concern is more about the lies that got spilled out over the initial film, and the death threats that came afterwards. Couple of side facts: * some of the em…

"he has +300 employees, you can't personally monitor everyone all of the time" This is complete and utter bullshit. The whole animal cruelty issue has been in the news for years and to say you did nothing to investigate your own operations or do anything to monitor the activity is negligence. I saw the video too! I have a friend in the Dairy business with around 150 employees. His entire operation is video monitored…

Affordable, efficient, reliable and effective video surveillance tech hasn't really been around for very long, and argiculture isn't exactly silicon valley, the people in charge aren't always very enthusiastic about embracing new technologies. I find it quite easy to believe that an owner of a dairy business might do periodic in-person audits of employees and feel that that's sufficient.

Additionally, Idaho is known for its libertarian attitudes, and around-the-clock video surveillance of the entire premises is quite at odds with those ideals. I don't find it hard to imagine that an agricultural operation with video surveillance is meaningfully less attractive to employees.

And finally, how bad are the attrocities in these videos relative to the conditions that animals are normally kept in? They can get pretty bad, but I don't think there's an order of magnitude of difference. How much worse is it to be beaten when you already live your life in a cage sitting in your own filth? If you are utterly disgusted by the abuse revealed in these videos, can you really justify modern livestock farming at all? Either you accept that we should treat animals as objects, as we are evolutionarily prepared to do, or you can argue that because we now have the infrastructure available to us to treat animals with respect, we have the responsibility to do so. You can choose a position somewhere along that spectrum, but if you draw the line between imprisoning animals in unliveable conditions so unhealthy that they are fed antibiotics to prevent the spread of disease, and beating them, then I'd argue that the level of precision of your position on the animal rights spectrum is irrationally high, and that it cannot be based in logic.

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#115

I'm mixed on this. For background, I'm from Idaho and the son of a dairyman in this state. I know the intimate details of how this law came about, I know the dairyman whose operation was filmed, and I've seen the film. From the viewpoint of the guys in ag, their concern is more about the lies that got spilled out over the initial film, and the death threats that came afterwards. Couple of side facts: * some of the em…

The single best way for these farmers, any farmers, to refute any / all concerns like this is to set up publicly-viewable, always on video feeds of their entire farm operations. Problem solved; assuming there isnt actually bad behavior. This is not expensive.

Consider the documentaries about the livestock industry that present these operations as they are supposed to operate, and the disgust that they evoke in viewers. Now consider if that footage was much more available. I see two possible outcomes. Either people see that and realise where their meat is coming from, and elect to eat less/no meat, or people become desensitized to the conditions, and the leaked PETA-style footage becomes less apalling. The former possibility makes this idea unrealistic in practice, and the latter doesn't seem very good either.

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> rape racks Is consent possible within the scope of bestiality?

Yes, nonverbal consent is definitely possible, although it is considered a weaker standard than verbal consent, which is why humans often advocate for that. There is a difference between leaving a creature in open space with a herd around them, teeth and hooves available for "speech", and locking a creature to a rack where they are alone and powerless to dissuade penetration.

She was asking for it, all dressed up in leather like that.

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> rape racks Is consent possible within the scope of bestiality?

Yes, nonverbal consent is definitely possible, although it is considered a weaker standard than verbal consent, which is why humans often advocate for that. There is a difference between leaving a creature in open space with a herd around them, teeth and hooves available for "speech", and locking a creature to a rack where they are alone and powerless to dissuade penetration.

I don't know how you can apply human attitudes toward sex and consent to other animals so biologically distinct. I'm not going to argue that cows are naturally "consent" to sex at any time in any form, but there's an argument (see below) to be made that supports that extreme more strongly than the idea that human sexuality is applicable to cows. I'm not entirely sure how to research this, but it needs actual research before any meaningful statements can be made.

Cattle is low on the food chain, while humans are at the top. It makes sense for animals at the top of the food chain to be more selective with regard to sex because it's important for their offspring to be highly fit. Lower on the food chain, having the most fit offspring isn't as important, unless they can reliably be fit enough to always evade predators. Since illness and injury can always happen, it's more important to have many offspring than it is to have especially fit ones. Ergo more sex, and less selectivity with regard to partners.

Anyway, I'm not a biologist, and I haven't heard of any research on this topic. For all I know, what I just said is complete bullshit, but it seems to me to hold more water than blindly applying human morality to non-human animals.

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#118

I'm mixed on this. For background, I'm from Idaho and the son of a dairyman in this state. I know the intimate details of how this law came about, I know the dairyman whose operation was filmed, and I've seen the film. From the viewpoint of the guys in ag, their concern is more about the lies that got spilled out over the initial film, and the death threats that came afterwards. Couple of side facts: * some of the em…

"he has +300 employees, you can't personally monitor everyone all of the time" This is complete and utter bullshit. The whole animal cruelty issue has been in the news for years and to say you did nothing to investigate your own operations or do anything to monitor the activity is negligence. I saw the video too! I have a friend in the Dairy business with around 150 employees. His entire operation is video monitored…

My operations? I'm not a dairyman, those weren't my cows. I supposed I could stick a camera on my chicken coop.

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#119
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like with police abuses, the fix for the problem is to shine as bright a light as possible on it until it's understood and can be addressed. For many people, at least, a clear understanding that not all cops are bad actors — that, in fact, the bad actors constitute an overwhelming minority of the population. (But also, unfortunately, that the problem in that case is exacerbated by the "thin blue line".) Blocking…

"On any given day, in any police department in the nation, 15 percent of officers will do the right thing no matter what is happening. Fifteen percent of officers will abuse their authority at every opportunity. The remaining 70 percent could go either way depending on whom they are working with." - from http://www.vox.com/2015/5/28/8661977/race-police-officer So if K.L. Williams, "who has trained thousands of office…

I'd really like to see some citations for that assertion. Pending that, I'm going to file his claim under "73.6% of statistics are made up on the spot."

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#120

Thank you, Judge B. Lynn Winmill, of the United States District Court for the District of Idaho. Let your name be repeated and known as someone that does away with laws bordering on absurdism and pure corporate protectionism. That this even needed to be reviewed because it passed state legislatures is insane. That it's a law mimicked by many states is very seriously disturbing. It means that there are hundreds or mor…

I found it interesting that Judge Winmill grew up on a dairy farm.

Source: http://blogs.idahostatesman.com/otters-blast-at-judge-winmil...

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