Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’ • Hacker News Board

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#101

Post by fredkbloggs » Wed, Aug 05, 2015, 1:33 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #96

fredkbloggs wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not expressing an opinion on abortion or agriculture. Let's talk about "disproportionate" representation. Idaho is home to 1.6m people ( http://www.census.gov/popest/data/state/totals/2014/tables/N... ). It has 2 votes in the Senate, like every other state, or 2% of the total, and 2 votes in the House ( http://www.house.gov/representatives/#state_id ), or 0.46%. According to the Census Bureau ( http://www.census.…

1.5 votes per person is a huge margin when you're voting on national law that binds everyone. I'm sympathetic to the idea that we should not try to govern such a huge diverse nation with one set of laws. But then we should get rid of the Commerce Clause. States should be able to erect trade barriers to keep other states from undermining their social policies with race to the bottom behavior.

This depends on what you mean by "trade barrier". Is a labeling law a trade barrier? I don't believe that it is. The Canadian objection to the US food labeling laws seems misguided to me, for the same reason that opposition to California's GMO labeling proposals seems misguided. My solution to this is to radically reduce federal power (basically back to what the founders intended). That would let the states decide whether they want ag-gag laws, and also whether they want to mandate "made in an ag-gag state" labeling. Seems fair to me. Apparently seems fair to you, too. So why are we commenting on a federal court decision?

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#102

Post by marricks » Wed, Aug 05, 2015, 1:41 AM UTC

cwbrandsma wrote: post #91

marricks wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a vegan (ergo completely opposed to your industry), but I get where you're coming from. It's your livelihood, and it's probably been your family's lively hood. Here's the thing though, the vast majority of where the US gets it's milk from is less of a farm nowadays and more of a factory, that's why milk production efficiency has shot up in the past 100 years --because we started treated these animals more and mor…

Couple good points in your comment, some not so good. But trust me, I appreciate your comments. On milk factories and breeding, yes. That is part of the current game. But I would argue that selective breeding has been done for centuries, we've just gotten better at it. Capitalism has basically forced dairymen to become more efficient -- which is good and bad. My grandfather's cows gave 40-50 lbs of milk per day, my f…

You don't seem to directly reject any of my points, you haven't heard of rape racks, yet artificial insemination (AI) accounts for 75% of all animal agriculture pregnancies[1]. And sure, government subsidies specifically for the dairy industry may be floors as you say, but farm subsidies help ensure milk stays at close to half the cost it would be otherwise somehow[2].

As for selective breeding, I sure am impressed by the three fold increase in milk production! Sure, it's selective breeding, but that takes a huge toll on the animal, we don't consider its effect on the animal beyond its ability to live to give us that milk. Once again, we treat them as objects rather than animals that should have their own considerations. *One only needs to look as far as dog breeding to see an example of how much selective breeding can screw with an animal.

It's strange though, your post brings me close to my initial thoughts that lead me to veganism... where is a workable solution in a capitalist system where the only thing we value out of these animals is the quantity of flesh and milk we get out of them? There aren't any laws protecting them which aren't self enforced (the Animal Welfare Act explicitly excludes farm animals). I cannot agree that there is a workable solution except moving past this system, thanks for your thoughts and reply.

I've seen many posts from dairy farmers turning away from the industry and going vegan, becoming champions for the cause, you seem like a nice and reasonable person, hope someday to see you in the tofu aisle!

[1] http://polyland.calpoly.edu/topics/agriculture/studentsites/...

[2] http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2013/1206/Milk-for-7-a....

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#103

Post by rayiner » Wed, Aug 05, 2015, 1:51 AM UTC

fredkbloggs wrote: post #101

rayiner wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1.5 votes per person is a huge margin when you're voting on national law that binds everyone. I'm sympathetic to the idea that we should not try to govern such a huge diverse nation with one set of laws. But then we should get rid of the Commerce Clause. States should be able to erect trade barriers to keep other states from undermining their social policies with race to the bottom behavior.

This depends on what you mean by "trade barrier". Is a labeling law a trade barrier? I don't believe that it is. The Canadian objection to the US food labeling laws seems misguided to me, for the same reason that opposition to California's GMO labeling proposals seems misguided. My solution to this is to radically reduce federal power (basically back to what the founders intended). That would let the states decide wh…

I mean any sort of trade barrier. E.g. California can ban imports from Idaho unless Idaho repeals right to work laws. The problem with federalism as implemented in the U.S. is that the method of apportioning votes gives small rural states disproportionate influence while the Commerce Clause neuters the ability of large states to use their natural economic leverage to the benefit of thei citizens.

You should either have one nation, with everyone getting one vote, or a collection of nation states that can use their full range of natural advantages against other nation states.

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#104

Post by cma » Wed, Aug 05, 2015, 1:53 AM UTC

cwbrandsma wrote: post #42

I'm mixed on this. For background, I'm from Idaho and the son of a dairyman in this state. I know the intimate details of how this law came about, I know the dairyman whose operation was filmed, and I've seen the film. From the viewpoint of the guys in ag, their concern is more about the lies that got spilled out over the initial film, and the death threats that came afterwards. Couple of side facts: * some of the em…

> the film has been redubbed constantly to attack other operations -- even tho they weren't filmed.

But.. filming the others was made illegal.

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#105

Post by ryhanson » Wed, Aug 05, 2015, 2:15 AM UTC

cweagans wrote: post #8

As an Idaho resident, I'm very grateful that this was struck down. It's a terrible idea. Too bad Butch (governor) can't tell the difference between right and wrong when his corporate sponsors are involved (which is always).

Also an Idaho resident. I, too, am very grateful this got struck down. Just like I was glad when same-sex marriage was legalized with Butch being so against it. I absolutely love Idaho, but I very much dislike our Governor. Unfortunately he rarely does what the people want, and only makes decisions based on his own beliefs and sponsors, as you mentioned.

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#106

Post by emcrazyone » Wed, Aug 05, 2015, 2:18 AM UTC

cwbrandsma wrote: post #42

I'm mixed on this. For background, I'm from Idaho and the son of a dairyman in this state. I know the intimate details of how this law came about, I know the dairyman whose operation was filmed, and I've seen the film. From the viewpoint of the guys in ag, their concern is more about the lies that got spilled out over the initial film, and the death threats that came afterwards. Couple of side facts: * some of the em…

"he has +300 employees, you can't personally monitor everyone all of the time"

This is complete and utter bullshit. The whole animal cruelty issue has been in the news for years and to say you did nothing to investigate your own operations or do anything to monitor the activity is negligence. I saw the video too!

I have a friend in the Dairy business with around 150 employees. His entire operation is video monitored around the clock.

I just don't buy arguments like this. I see them as excuses. Your friend may be a good person and all but not doing more to prevent the bad apples is just no excuse in my book.

The sad thing is people need to be kept in check. For if the video never came out, this dairyman would probably have continue business as usual since he never bothered to do his own audits or install video surveillance.

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#107

Post by eevilspock » Wed, Aug 05, 2015, 2:27 AM UTC

rosser wrote: post #47

cwbrandsma wrote: post #42

I'm mixed on this. For background, I'm from Idaho and the son of a dairyman in this state. I know the intimate details of how this law came about, I know the dairyman whose operation was filmed, and I've seen the film. From the viewpoint of the guys in ag, their concern is more about the lies that got spilled out over the initial film, and the death threats that came afterwards. Couple of side facts: * some of the em…

Just like with police abuses, the fix for the problem is to shine as bright a light as possible on it until it's understood and can be addressed. For many people, at least, a clear understanding that not all cops are bad actors — that, in fact, the bad actors constitute an overwhelming minority of the population. (But also, unfortunately, that the problem in that case is exacerbated by the "thin blue line".) Blocking…

"On any given day, in any police department in the nation, 15 percent of officers will do the right thing no matter what is happening. Fifteen percent of officers will abuse their authority at every opportunity. The remaining 70 percent could go either way depending on whom they are working with."

- from http://www.vox.com/2015/5/28/8661977/race-police-officer

So if K.L. Williams, "who has trained thousands of officers around the country in use of force", is right, the 15% bad actors (your "overwhelming minority") turns into 85%. That is consistent with not just the survey troym links to, but the experiences described by those people victimized by police injustice. I doubt many HN readers are in that population.

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#108

Post by laGrenouille » Wed, Aug 05, 2015, 2:27 AM UTC

fredkbloggs wrote: post #94

rayiner wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because abortion clinics don't create a ton of jobs in rural states with disproportionate electoral representation.

I'm not expressing an opinion on abortion or agriculture. Let's talk about "disproportionate" representation. Idaho is home to 1.6m people ( http://www.census.gov/popest/data/state/totals/2014/tables/N... ). It has 2 votes in the Senate, like every other state, or 2% of the total, and 2 votes in the House ( http://www.house.gov/representatives/#state_id ), or 0.46%. According to the Census Bureau ( http://www.census.…

The issue with your math is that you're incorrectly assuming that a vote in the House is equally powerful to one in the Senate. On the contrary, a seat in the Senate is far more powerful due to procedural differences, significantly longer terms, and the smaller size of the body.

When just looking at the representation in the Senate, Idaho has 4% of the votes but only 0.49% of the population... A factor of nearly 10.

The make-up of the US government was always intended as a way to balance equal representation by state (Senate) and population (House). The problem is that while the original 13 states were relatively uniform in size we have since created states with vastly different populations (Wyoming is 68x smaller than California!).

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#109

Post by mattm » Wed, Aug 05, 2015, 2:34 AM UTC

eevilspock wrote: post #107

rosser wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like with police abuses, the fix for the problem is to shine as bright a light as possible on it until it's understood and can be addressed. For many people, at least, a clear understanding that not all cops are bad actors — that, in fact, the bad actors constitute an overwhelming minority of the population. (But also, unfortunately, that the problem in that case is exacerbated by the "thin blue line".) Blocking…

"On any given day, in any police department in the nation, 15 percent of officers will do the right thing no matter what is happening. Fifteen percent of officers will abuse their authority at every opportunity. The remaining 70 percent could go either way depending on whom they are working with." - from http://www.vox.com/2015/5/28/8661977/race-police-officer So if K.L. Williams, "who has trained thousands of office…

When I was teaching English in China, one student got locked out of his apartment. Apparently, the city has authorized locksmiths you can call to open your apartment after proving that it's you. So he called one and was shocked at how quickly the locksmith could open the door.

The locksmith said to him "Locks aren't for people like me. If someone wants to break in, a lock isn't going to stop them. 15% of people will try to steal no matter what you do. 15% will never take anything even if you leave your door while open. Locks are for that 70% in the middle that will steal if the opportunity is right."

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#110

Post by CamperBob2 » Wed, Aug 05, 2015, 2:35 AM UTC

marricks wrote: post #102

cwbrandsma wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couple good points in your comment, some not so good. But trust me, I appreciate your comments. On milk factories and breeding, yes. That is part of the current game. But I would argue that selective breeding has been done for centuries, we've just gotten better at it. Capitalism has basically forced dairymen to become more efficient -- which is good and bad. My grandfather's cows gave 40-50 lbs of milk per day, my f…

You don't seem to directly reject any of my points, you haven't heard of rape racks, yet artificial insemination (AI) accounts for 75% of all animal agriculture pregnancies[1]. And sure, government subsidies specifically for the dairy industry may be floors as you say, but farm subsidies help ensure milk stays at close to half the cost it would be otherwise somehow[2]. As for selective breeding, I sure am impressed b…

...where is a workable solution in a capitalist system where the only thing we value out of these animals is the quantity of flesh and milk we get out of them?

The whole debate will be moot as soon as synthetic meat and dairy tech comes online. People will say it's a revolting idea at first, but it will rapidly become socially unacceptable to harvest live animals once there's a viable alternative.

I actually expect this trend to be pushed by the meat industry, not fought by it. Nobody wants to be in the animal-husbandry business less than the factory farms, because animals are expensive and inconvenient to deal with. It's going to make for a fascinating socioeconomic transition.