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Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

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Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#91

I'm mixed on this. For background, I'm from Idaho and the son of a dairyman in this state. I know the intimate details of how this law came about, I know the dairyman whose operation was filmed, and I've seen the film. From the viewpoint of the guys in ag, their concern is more about the lies that got spilled out over the initial film, and the death threats that came afterwards. Couple of side facts: * some of the em…

I'm a vegan (ergo completely opposed to your industry), but I get where you're coming from. It's your livelihood, and it's probably been your family's lively hood. Here's the thing though, the vast majority of where the US gets it's milk from is less of a farm nowadays and more of a factory, that's why milk production efficiency has shot up in the past 100 years --because we started treated these animals more and mor…

Couple good points in your comment, some not so good. But trust me, I appreciate your comments.

On milk factories and breeding, yes. That is part of the current game. But I would argue that selective breeding has been done for centuries, we've just gotten better at it. Capitalism has basically forced dairymen to become more efficient -- which is good and bad. My grandfather's cows gave 40-50 lbs of milk per day, my father's cows give 80 (some up to 120). There are consequences when that happens. How you get there is better breeding and better feed (feed has a lot to do with it).

On cow longevity, the lifespan of a dairy cow is actually a little longer than that, but the actual longevity it depends on the breed. Holsteins go for about 6 years (lets not kids ourselves, that is not a huge jump in longevity compared to your stated 4). As a comparison, the typical beef cow lives about 2 years. I would talk about veal....but even I don't eat veal. After 6 years the animal is "beefed", as kids we would called it "sold to McDonald's". My next door neighbor was a butcher, basically the only parts unused in a cow are the tail and the moo. Almost nothing goes to waist.

Never heard of a "rape rack", I had to look it up. I know a lot of AI breeders as well, that isn't how it is done on the dairies I've seen. From what I've seen it is not necessary, it is pretty easy to get the job done. But, lets talk female cows...ok, lets bring in biology here, female herbivores of almost any herd species (cows, buffalo, goats, sheep, etc) don't have many periods if there are functioning males around. If those animals are ovulating, the males notice -- even the females notice and tell the males about them.

On subsidies: most subsidies are "floors". No one gets money from the government unless the price of their product drops consistently below a set point. This happened for a brief period in 2009, and even then a lot of operations went out of business (which is by design actually). This isn't like farmers being paid to not farm (that happens -- ugg). But you also can't say the government is completely out of it either, because the government does buy a lot of milk product, usually powdered milk protein, which is often sent as aid to other countries.

Finally, I don't know if I would say a that everything is broken, but lets agree that things could be better. Somewhere between the ideals and where we are now is probably a workable solution that is good for the cows and keeps people's livelihoods.

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#92

I'm mixed on this. For background, I'm from Idaho and the son of a dairyman in this state. I know the intimate details of how this law came about, I know the dairyman whose operation was filmed, and I've seen the film. From the viewpoint of the guys in ag, their concern is more about the lies that got spilled out over the initial film, and the death threats that came afterwards. Couple of side facts: * some of the em…

Can someone elucidate why existing defamation laws don't cover this already?

You can only sue for defamation if know who the culprit is. On the internet it is relatively easy to remain anonymous.

Case in point: the dairy abuse video that was shot (let agree, it was bad). I've seen it rework and targeted at a milk creamery in Oregon (all via YouTube and Facebook). The video state that this was how the Oregon creamery treated its cows. Couple problems: the dairy wasn't in Oregon, it was in Idaho. The dairy in Idaho doesn't sell to the creamery in Oregon. And the creamery in Oregon DOESN'T OWN ANY COWS. They contract their milk from dairymen in Oregon.

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#93

I'm mixed on this. For background, I'm from Idaho and the son of a dairyman in this state. I know the intimate details of how this law came about, I know the dairyman whose operation was filmed, and I've seen the film. From the viewpoint of the guys in ag, their concern is more about the lies that got spilled out over the initial film, and the death threats that came afterwards. Couple of side facts: * some of the em…

A public broadcasting webcam or three might go a long way towards making it clear what's real and what's fantasy. For example, it would be simple to say "go to webcam.myfarm.com and you will see that the images in that movie don't even depict my farm."

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#94
post #89
post #6

I was thinking about this law during the recent Planned Parenthood undercover video stuff, as in why does the food industry get more protection than medical clinics. But what I still don't understand is how any of these undercover videos are legal under regular wiretapping laws. I always thought you have to get a party's consent to record them.

Because abortion clinics don't create a ton of jobs in rural states with disproportionate electoral representation.

I'm not expressing an opinion on abortion or agriculture.

Let's talk about "disproportionate" representation. Idaho is home to 1.6m people (http://www.census.gov/popest/data/state/totals/2014/tables/N...). It has 2 votes in the Senate, like every other state, or 2% of the total, and 2 votes in the House (http://www.house.gov/representatives/#state_id), or 0.46%. According to the Census Bureau (http://www.census.gov/popclock/) the United States has a population of 321m. Therefore Idaho has 0.498% of the US population. Accordingly, it is underrepresented in the House and, like most states, overrepresented in the Senate. Overall, Idaho has 4 out of 535 votes in the legislature, or 0.748%, meaning that Idahoans have about 1.5 votes per person. That's a very small margin, especially considering both the underrepresentation in the House and the tiny overall representation. Just how disproportionate is this? Well, if you took away just one representative, the state would be underrepresented overall, as well as being grossly underrepresented in the House. Granularity works against us here; there is no way to fairly represent states with moderate populations like Idaho.

Perhaps this should be telling us that we really aren't one nation and shouldn't attempt to govern such a large number of diverse people with a single set of laws. Again... regardless of what I personally think about abortion or ag-gag laws.

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#95

I'm mixed on this. For background, I'm from Idaho and the son of a dairyman in this state. I know the intimate details of how this law came about, I know the dairyman whose operation was filmed, and I've seen the film. From the viewpoint of the guys in ag, their concern is more about the lies that got spilled out over the initial film, and the death threats that came afterwards. Couple of side facts: * some of the em…

There are some echoes here, I think, of Sarah Jeong's thesis in The Internet of Garbage about how copyright laws aren't anti-harassment or privacy laws, how they make terrible anti-harassment or privacy laws, and how victims feel like they're the only option, which is just bad for everyone.

Your friends need better support from society. Some of that support may be from the laws (against death threats, slander, etc.). Some of that support needs to come from outside the laws, in the form of more speech countering the incorrect speech, as well as in the form of norms on civilized behavior. Some of that needs to come from a greater willingness to talk about where the food we eat comes from, how it doesn't just show up magically on grocery store shelves.

But bad laws won't help them in the long run, nor will they help society.

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#96
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because abortion clinics don't create a ton of jobs in rural states with disproportionate electoral representation.

I'm not expressing an opinion on abortion or agriculture. Let's talk about "disproportionate" representation. Idaho is home to 1.6m people ( http://www.census.gov/popest/data/state/totals/2014/tables/N... ). It has 2 votes in the Senate, like every other state, or 2% of the total, and 2 votes in the House ( http://www.house.gov/representatives/#state_id ), or 0.46%. According to the Census Bureau ( http://www.census.…

1.5 votes per person is a huge margin when you're voting on national law that binds everyone.

I'm sympathetic to the idea that we should not try to govern such a huge diverse nation with one set of laws. But then we should get rid of the Commerce Clause. States should be able to erect trade barriers to keep other states from undermining their social policies with race to the bottom behavior.

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#97

I'm mixed on this. For background, I'm from Idaho and the son of a dairyman in this state. I know the intimate details of how this law came about, I know the dairyman whose operation was filmed, and I've seen the film. From the viewpoint of the guys in ag, their concern is more about the lies that got spilled out over the initial film, and the death threats that came afterwards. Couple of side facts: * some of the em…

I'm a vegan (ergo completely opposed to your industry), but I get where you're coming from. It's your livelihood, and it's probably been your family's lively hood. Here's the thing though, the vast majority of where the US gets it's milk from is less of a farm nowadays and more of a factory, that's why milk production efficiency has shot up in the past 100 years --because we started treated these animals more and mor…

  > rape racks
Is consent possible within the scope of bestiality?

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a vegan (ergo completely opposed to your industry), but I get where you're coming from. It's your livelihood, and it's probably been your family's lively hood. Here's the thing though, the vast majority of where the US gets it's milk from is less of a farm nowadays and more of a factory, that's why milk production efficiency has shot up in the past 100 years --because we started treated these animals more and mor…

> rape racks Is consent possible within the scope of bestiality?

Yes, nonverbal consent is definitely possible, although it is considered a weaker standard than verbal consent, which is why humans often advocate for that.

There is a difference between leaving a creature in open space with a herd around them, teeth and hooves available for "speech", and locking a creature to a rack where they are alone and powerless to dissuade penetration.

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can someone elucidate why existing defamation laws don't cover this already?

You can only sue for defamation if know who the culprit is. On the internet it is relatively easy to remain anonymous. Case in point: the dairy abuse video that was shot (let agree, it was bad). I've seen it rework and targeted at a milk creamery in Oregon (all via YouTube and Facebook). The video state that this was how the Oregon creamery treated its cows. Couple problems: the dairy wasn't in Oregon, it was in Idah…

Wouldn't surprise me if someone making videos and submitting to YouTube slipped up and identifying info was available. Did the dairy in question pursue this case or assume it was too hard to identify someone?

Re: Federal Judge Strikes Down Idaho ‘Ag-Gag Law’

#100

I'm mixed on this. For background, I'm from Idaho and the son of a dairyman in this state. I know the intimate details of how this law came about, I know the dairyman whose operation was filmed, and I've seen the film. From the viewpoint of the guys in ag, their concern is more about the lies that got spilled out over the initial film, and the death threats that came afterwards. Couple of side facts: * some of the em…

I'm from eastern WA myself and I know what you mean, but seriously:

> The dairymen in the state aren't worried about filming, they are worried about lies coming from it.

Libel laws already exist. We don't ban people from speaking because they might say something they could be held civilly liable for. I know suing people for libel is a pain in the ass (and apparently in Idaho it's much easier to just have your state legislature pass a law), but that's the price you pay to live in a free society.

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