Live data from Hacker News

California Has a Plan to End the Auto Industry as We Know It

bloomberg.com

211–218 of 218 posts

Re: California Has a Plan to End the Auto Industry as We Know It

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recent story inre GM’s poor quality and high prices relative to Japanese automakers: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9946385 I agree that high priced gasoline, fees for parking and road use, and changes to zoning and land use policy would be great, but perhaps we still also want some regulation of car emissions? Do you have a link explaining how EPA improvements made cars less efficient?

This glances at it a bit. http://jalopnik.com/5551040/why-old-cars-suck Spark control was much more primitive, carbureted engines just were not good candidates for all the complexity of hoses and such, gas of varying quality would clog catalytic converters... the technologies were just in an intermediate state. There were all "add parts" improvements. Japanese cars could be better but frequently were even much more c…

I guess I’m not understanding your original point... it seems like cars have gotten much better than they used to be. Are you saying in a counterfactual world without the EPA, they would be even better still? Or are you saying that those improvements were inevitable and cars would be equally good but cheaper without the EPA regulations? Or are you saying that regulations are better now than they were in the 80s? Or ...

It seems to me that an alternate explanation could be that it took auto makers 10–20 years to figure out how to build good compliant cars, with their first tries sucking, but once the regulatory regime had been stable for a while they figured out how to make big improvements. In a counterfactual world without those requirements they might be much more polluting today. [I dunno, I’m not at all an expert in this subject, I’m just speculating.]

At any rate, as someone who grew up in the 90s in southern CA, I’m very thankful that emissions of cars made in the 80s/90s were much better than cars 20 years prior; cleaner cars were a big part of the radical drop in air pollution throughout the area.

Re: California Has a Plan to End the Auto Industry as We Know It

#212
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A quick googling produced: The impact of coal-burning power plants and gasoline can be quantified. The EPA estimates that the average passenger vehicle emits 5.1 metric tons of carbon dioxide equivalents per year. Coal-burning power plants, on the other hand, produce more than 4 million metric tons per power plant, per year. The overall carbon dioxide output of coal-fired electric power plants exceeded gasoline by mo…

These numbers need a bit more data and some unit conversion before they can be compared. Tons/powerplant and tons/car are not comparable units. We need something like tons/mile_electric and tons/mile_gasoline .

If only coal is considered, it doesn't look good.

My math may be way off, but:

coal: 1,933,130,000,000 kwh/yr plants: 518 kwh/plant: 373,191,120 tons/plant: 4,000,000 ton/kwh : 0.01 37.4% of electricity in US

nat. gas: .0005675 ton/kwh 30.3% of electricity in US

tesla S: .3kwh/mi

Coal only: .003 ton/mi Gas only: .00017 ton/mi Coal + Gas + Renewables: 0.0012 ton/mi

avg ICE: 12,000 mi/yr 5.1 ton/yr 0.000425 ton / mi

As we move away from coal and towards renewables, it's obvious that electric cars become the winners. In areas with mostly coal power production, though, ICEs are more environmentally friendly.

It's really telling how freaking dirty coal is.

Re: California Has a Plan to End the Auto Industry as We Know It

#213

I imagine that the women in that picture is supposed to look like she's taking in a breath of fresh air, but she looks incredibly smug.

Maybe that's what her car really runs on. Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smug_Alert !

The angry response to my post is quite telling. Guess I hit a nerve.

Re: California Has a Plan to End the Auto Industry as We Know It

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This glances at it a bit. http://jalopnik.com/5551040/why-old-cars-suck Spark control was much more primitive, carbureted engines just were not good candidates for all the complexity of hoses and such, gas of varying quality would clog catalytic converters... the technologies were just in an intermediate state. There were all "add parts" improvements. Japanese cars could be better but frequently were even much more c…

I guess I’m not understanding your original point... it seems like cars have gotten much better than they used to be. Are you saying in a counterfactual world without the EPA, they would be even better still? Or are you saying that those improvements were inevitable and cars would be equally good but cheaper without the EPA regulations? Or are you saying that regulations are better now than they were in the 80s? Or .…

It's the "it took 10-20 years" thing. Really, the advance of digital technology made it all work out in the end - trying to do all that stuff in the mechanical domain was charming but it took more talent than was readily available and raised the price of cars. Digital just means a different class of engineer could address the problem and the replicability of digital helped. A generation had to exit the workforce and be replaced for it to actually work.

My more central point is that they didn't have to be polluting at all, using older technology. Properly tuned engines didn't pollute much.

Most if not all issues addressed were really down to proper maintenance. The "people who aren't there" in the modern software that runs cars do that for you now. As hard as it may be to believe, people were more or less expected to do their own maintenance on cars. Of course they didn't. But that is just how I was raised.

Again, we use cars to rejigger location in real estate. It's the use of a technology to solve something that is ultimately a governance problem. I suspect land rent taxes would be more efficient.

Re: California Has a Plan to End the Auto Industry as We Know It

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The electric car is one of the ways carmakers expect to lower their average fuel consumption and get to the 55 mpg average. The problem is, people aren't buying, whether all-electric or plug-in hybrid. General Motors is struggling to sell 10,000 Chevy Volts this year, and Nissan has sold just over 8,000 Leafs. For context, about 13 million cars are expected to be sold in the U.S. in 2011... The bad news is that the…

I really appreciate the thorough, cited reply! There isn't enough of this deep dialogue on the 'net, much less on HN. Upvoted, for that alone. :) All of your concerns are rational considerations: integrated costs of materials, existing demand for electric/plug-in hybrid vehicles (though I think you'll see there's been growing uptake since your 2011 source!), sources of power on the grid skewing towards fossil fuels..…

I'm mostly just avoiding the tedious task of refactoring some load tests, haha.

Almost all solar power is heavily subsidized by the government, and is still more costly than its worth:

"In spite of government’s best efforts to encourage innovation by solar energy companies and encourage Americans to rely more heavily on solar electricity, solar power continues to be a losing proposition. American taxpayers spent an average of $39 billion a year over the past 5 years financing grants, subsidizing tax credits, guaranteeing loans, bailing out failed solar energy boondoggles and otherwise underwriting every idea under the sun to make solar energy cheaper and more popular. But none of it has worked. Solar energy remains prohibitively expensive – often three times more than electricity produced from natural gas or other sources. As a result, less than 1 percent of the electricity consumers by Americans comes from solar energy sources."[0]

Solar has a cost problem and an intermittency problem: "At first glance, it looks like [photovoltaics (PV)] could be competitive with coal or natural gas plants if the PV cost were to drop below 10 cents/kWh. But there is an important difference between PV and the traditional technologies which makes this simple cost comparison invalid.

But first, take a look at the cost of electricity from a coal plant. The total cost is projected to be 9.5 cents/kWh per the [U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)] study. About 6.5 cents of this is capital cost and about 2.5 cents is the cost of the coal. Looking at the natural gas plant, one can see the capital cost is about 2 cents, and the fuel cost is about 4.5 cents.

Solar has no fuel cost element but significant capital investment.

But here is the rub. If you plan to power a city with PV, it is not sufficient to simply build a large PV array, because PV only produces power during the day. At night and during cloudy weather, a back-up power source is needed since there is no practical way to store the PV energy.

So the city must also build a conventional coal or gas plant, which will sit idle on many sunny days. The real cost of the PV is not just its cost, but also the cost of the back-up plant. Coal and natural gas plants do not need back-up like PV does.

So what is the real value of PV? It is principally the fuel savings which occur when the traditional plant can reduce output during sunny days. Or stated another way, PV is worth avoided fuel cost. The main point is that PV is not competing against the LCOE of coal or natural gas plants; it is competing against the variable operating cost of these plants, which is 2-4.5 cents."[1]

Solar is fine for heating your pool or providing a little energy on sunny days, but if I'm on the operating table, there's not a snowball's chance in hell I want the doctors to be relying on solar power without a fossil fuel backup.

Wind power is also very costly. It requires a lot of the rare earth mining I cited earlier and kills an est. 234,000 birds per year in the U.S. alone.[2]

My point is that there are negative externalities associated with all types of energy production; I don't have any problem allowing new forms of energy to compete for adoption. But competition does not mean taking a superior form of energy production (oil, gas, nuclear, hydro) and artificially inflating the price through regulatory policy[3] so that inferior forms of energy production (solar, wind) may become "viable" on a large scale. Undo the bad law/regulation which shackles nuclear, fossil fuels, and hydro (outside of some basic stuff like the catalytic converter), stop subsidizing wind and solar (and oil as well), and let them compete!

I keep coming back to this: cheap, reliable, portable, plentiful energy is what makes modern life possible---the more we can rely on machines to do the back-breaking work humans used to do, the better. The more energy a society uses, the wealthier and healthier its citizenry. As the name of that site I cited suggests, (fossil fuel, hydro, nuclear) energy production is the Master Resource from which all else is possible in a modern economy.

Regarding your last point, you cannot say on one hand that it is a "dynamically changing market" and car companies simply need to adapt, while acknowledging in the same breath that government regulatory policy has placed these undue burdens upon the companies in the first place! It's like California creating the conditions for fuel costs to rise, and then blaming the oil companies! Let's see it in action:

"Based on an Air Resources Board analysis, the Western States Petroleum Association last year extrapolated that cap and trade would add 16 cents to 76 cents a gallon to the retail price of gas. Other economists projected a 10-cent bump. Sure enough, gas prices skyrocketed this year, though it’s tough to disentangle the impact of cap and trade from other ill-conceived environmental policies.

State and federal environmental mandates have forced several smaller, inefficient refineries in California to shut down over the past two decades. Only 14 refineries in California produce the state’s pristine-burning fuel, and most operate at nearly full capacity to stay cost-effective. Few refiners outside the state blend California’s reformulated fuel.

In most of the country, a problem at one refinery won’t significantly affect retail gas prices. But in California, when one refinery shuts down, others can’t pick up the slack. And it can take weeks to import refined fuel by tanker. In the meantime, customers are stuck paying higher prices.

Hence this year’s price swoon. Following an explosion at an Exxon Mobil refinery in Torrance, and a labor stoppage at a Tesoro plant in Martinez this winter, gasoline prices rose nearly a dollar. Eventually, imported oil helped cover the supply-demand gap. But recently a Tesoro refinery in Carson reduced its output to perform annual maintenance, which has again stretched supply in the Southern California market.

In May Democratic state legislators held hearings to “investigate” the gas price spike. San Francisco hedge-fund grandee Tom Steyer has demanded subpoenas of oil-industry executives.

“As everyone knows, the oil companies have been charging Californians up to $1 billion per month more for gasoline than if we paid the national average,” the billionaire environmentalist asserted. “It’s time to put an end to the Big Oil giveaway.”"[4]

What I have done so far is offered an overview of a contrary position, which is basically a riff on this book: http://www.amazon.com/Moral-Case-Fossil-Fuels-ebook/dp/B00IN.... I would recommend it to anyone interested in the other side of the debate.

[0]https://www.masterresource.org/solar-power-issues/government... [1]https://www.masterresource.org/solar-power/solar-power-cost-... [2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_wind_p... [3]http://www2.epa.gov/cleanpowerplan/clean-power-plan-existing... [4]http://www.wsj.com/articles/sky-high-california-gas-prices-h...

Re: California Has a Plan to End the Auto Industry as We Know It

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really appreciate the thorough, cited reply! There isn't enough of this deep dialogue on the 'net, much less on HN. Upvoted, for that alone. :) All of your concerns are rational considerations: integrated costs of materials, existing demand for electric/plug-in hybrid vehicles (though I think you'll see there's been growing uptake since your 2011 source!), sources of power on the grid skewing towards fossil fuels..…

I'm mostly just avoiding the tedious task of refactoring some load tests, haha. Almost all solar power is heavily subsidized by the government, and is still more costly than its worth: "In spite of government’s best efforts to encourage innovation by solar energy companies and encourage Americans to rely more heavily on solar electricity, solar power continues to be a losing proposition. American taxpayers spent an a…

Upvoted for more dialogue. :)

Re: Fuel costs and the competition with Coal & Natural Gas...

What you're describing is exactly the reason (from my perspective) that incentives for solar, wind, etc. exist... The up-front costs of R&D for new technologies, particularly those with long payback periods and uncertain progress milestones, are not well-provided for in a marketplace that isn't pressured by high costs of existing solutions. Without pre-emptive investment in alternatives, we'd just burn coal until we literally ran out, and there are significant economic and environmental consequences of proceeding in that fashion.

Beyond the basic subsidy concern, the cost of coal, natural gas, etc. is all-in. What we have to measure is not just the cost of replacing fuel in existing plants. What we have to measure is the lifetime cost of installing new capacity. We're turning on new power plants worldwide at a truly astonishing pace. I would like as few of those to be legacy technologies as possible. The trend towards new installations being solar comes from the latest Bloomberg energy forecast. [1]

The "we can't just do solar - what about nighttime" argument (and the same for wind, on a still day) is an acknowledged limitation that is being circumvented by battery storage, decentralized grids, and other infrastructure investments (witness the SolarCity/Tesla model where everyone has a battery pack on their home, much like you keep a propane tank on your off-grid homestead, as one example). It will never be the case that the shadow from a cloud interrupts your triple-bypass surgery, just as generators would currently take over in a brown-out on the current grid.

Re: dynamic market vs. stodgy old companies... My view is that people/companies respond to incentives at different rates and sensitivities. You can have a market swinging towards electric cars (GM is happy to sell you a Volt, Nissan the Leaf) and still have a company like Chrysler/Fiat dragging its feet. Regulatory pressures, be they a gas tax (I'm not a fan - too regressive), an electric car mandate, tax and commuting incentives for drivers of efficient cars, etc. are designed to serve as mobilizers for even those companies that are too mis-managed to follow the over-arching trend of the markets. This is how we get things to move faster in our favor, particularly when there are significant downsides to staying the course re: air pollution, environmental degradation, climate change, etc. Whether the price of gas rises due to taxes or swings of the oil industry, I'm indifferent - the price hike has the same effect on incentives. The only benefit to a gas tax (which, again, I'd rather avoid since it hurts the poor), is that when the price of oil goes down occasionally, the price of gas stays at the same high level. It reduces uncertainty in the market and allows everyone to uniformly plan for an economy that must absorb those high costs.

[1] http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-23/the-way-hu...

Re: California Has a Plan to End the Auto Industry as We Know It

#217
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where's the electricity coming from? If your answer is natural gas, or oil powered generators, then no, there isn't a price point where it will break even. Now if you can answer that question with nuclear reactors or renewables of any kind, then your logic probably applies. Yet, I doubt it will ever be the main fuel powering our transportation.

But doesn't this equally apply to fully-electric vehicles as well?

No. Electric cars that charge on fossil fuels face the Carnot cycle loses exactly once, just like internal combustion ones. They are competing on what are details when compared to another cycle.

Re: California Has a Plan to End the Auto Industry as We Know It

#218
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that (huge) assumption is allowed for this technology, why not EVs? You can paint a very rosy picture of any transport technology if you assume away fossil fuels.

If I already own a perfectly good ICE car, as most people do, it's much less wasteful to start feeding it synthetic gasoline than replacing the whole car with an EV. And the benefits are immediate. Edit: Also, the energy density of hydrocarbons is unmatched. Synthetic kerosene could be used to run 747's; battery technology can't do that.

>If I already own a perfectly good ICE car, as most people do, it's much less wasteful to start feeding it synthetic gasoline than replacing the whole car with an EV

Actually this is incorrect. 75% of the energy used by a gasoline car is in the fuel it takes to drive it, and only 25% in manufacturing and disposal.

It's the same situation with incandescent lights. It's mathematically more efficient to throw out a perfectly good one and replace it with something more efficient.

>Synthetic kerosene could be used to run 747's; battery technology can't do that.

http://www.aviation.com/general-aviation/elon-musk-toying-de...

Post reply on HN