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California Has a Plan to End the Auto Industry as We Know It

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Re: California Has a Plan to End the Auto Industry as We Know It

#131

Post by zaitcev »

runamok wrote: post #45
runamok wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A huge amount of energy in gasoline is wasted as heat. About 70%. Electric plants lose much less energy due to reusing the heat fairly efficiently. There are some losses due to power transmission there of course. Keep in mind some electricity that ends up in cars would/should come from renewable sources... http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/atv.shtml

FYI the losses of different power plants vary greatly but are higher than I thought. http://www.brighthubengineering.com/power-plants/72369-compa...

All is left for you is to learn why resistive losses on the order of about 30% are necessary for the (unbuffered) electric grid to function at all.

Re: California Has a Plan to End the Auto Industry as We Know It

#132

Post by bluthru »

steve19 wrote: post #118
bluthru wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- Electric vehicles are more energy efficient. - Gasoline requires lots of transport. (Shipped across the ocean, trains, refinery, delivered to a gas station, travels with the car until burned.) - Electric vehicles last longer. - Electric vehicles can be charged with a personal solar array. - Less smog which means better health and cleaner cities. Making density more attractive is always green. - ICE cars have 152,30…

> Electric vehicles last longer. Do they? Because ICE vehicles last decades and they don't have expensive battery packs that need replacing.

I'm willing to bet all of the ICE-related maintenance will cost more than a battery pack replacement.

Re: California Has a Plan to End the Auto Industry as We Know It

#133

Post by greggyb »

Retric wrote: post #56
rhino369 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not 100% sure how California public utilities commission works, but in most states, the company would in fact need government permission to do upgrades. Otherwise they can't charge more money to do it. Power companies are heavily regulated and so are power rates. Their business model is dictated to them.

There is no need to change rates if demand increases, if anything things get cheaper per KWH as electric cars increase night time demand. As to permission, that’s not a cost which would need to be paid for.

The man hours (and there would be many) required to document the need, apply for permission, potentially attend hearings of some sort, argue for, and comply with the conditions of permission most certainly have non-zero cost to the utility company.

Re: California Has a Plan to End the Auto Industry as We Know It

#134

Post by cracell »

gambiting wrote: post #119
Animats wrote: post #105

The California Air Resources Board and the EPA have achieved quite a lot. Los Angeles air was barely breathable in the 1970s. Now, there's very little smog. Look at 1960s pictures of Los Angeles, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, New York. That was once considered impossible. Now, it's mostly done. The only thing keeping electric cars from taking over is battery cost. Performance and range have already been fixed. Once battery…

And the fact that millions of people live in flats, condos, terraced houses with no private parking spots and they can't charge their cars overnight. Here in UK the vast majority of people I know live in places where it would be impossible to take out a charging cable at night, so the only option is...charging at work? But who will foot the bill for installing chargers at literally every single parking spot everywher…

Seems like battery swaps are the solution to this. Essentially the battery pack is designed to be easily removable and you just "lease" it in one way or another.

You go to a fuel station and swap your battery packs with some that are already charged. Here's Tesla's pilot program http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/battery-swap-pilot-program

There's a lot of big challenges to this (weight of batteries, standardization, convenient swap stations, etc.) but I haven't heard of any better ideas at this point.

Re: California Has a Plan to End the Auto Industry as We Know It

#135

Post by mikestew »

greeneggs wrote: post #125
Animats wrote: post #105

The California Air Resources Board and the EPA have achieved quite a lot. Los Angeles air was barely breathable in the 1970s. Now, there's very little smog. Look at 1960s pictures of Los Angeles, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, New York. That was once considered impossible. Now, it's mostly done. The only thing keeping electric cars from taking over is battery cost. Performance and range have already been fixed. Once battery…

> The California Air Resources Board and the EPA have achieved quite a lot. Los Angeles air was barely breathable in the 1970s. Now, there's very little smog. Look at 1960s pictures of Los Angeles, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, New York. That was once considered impossible. Now, it's mostly done. I've never understood how Los Angelenos can be satisfied with their air quality. So many people are like you, and say that it is…

> I've never understood how Los Angelenos can be satisfied with their air quality. So many people are like you, and say that it is a solved problem.

As a non-resident of the California republic, I don't know that I'd called the problem "solved", but I'd say it's a hell of a lot better than it was, and the contrast is stark enough for me to give the EPA and CARB every budget dollar they ask for. Parent does not exaggerate when stating that the LA air of the 70s was "barely breathable". So maybe it's a matter of perspective, as I go there now and think "wow, it sure ain't like it used to be". "Extremely smoggy"? Perhaps I just go on the good days, but I'd describe it as "hazy, knowing full well it's pollutants" rather than "extremely smoggy". That's on the bad days when I'm there. A lot of the times I'm pretty impressed with the clarity of the air given it's a city in a hot valley.

Disclaimer: I have no allergies or respiratory problems of any kind, so maybe I don't notice the air quality of modern LA as much.

Re: California Has a Plan to End the Auto Industry as We Know It

#136

Post by danielweber »

schiffern wrote: post #81
tfinniga wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the linked pdf: "We have limited our studies to nuclear power because its capital costs are lower than wind and solar-electric power, and it has significant environmental advantages over fossil energy sources, which are not carbon-neutral."

If that (huge) assumption is allowed for this technology, why not EVs? You can paint a very rosy picture of any transport technology if you assume away fossil fuels.

The entire point of the question I asked was: given energy source, what is the comparison between 1) sending out electricity to batteries, or 2) creating liquid carbon-neutral fuels.

Re: California Has a Plan to End the Auto Industry as We Know It

#137

Post by Htsthbjig »

gambiting wrote: post #119
Animats wrote: post #105

The California Air Resources Board and the EPA have achieved quite a lot. Los Angeles air was barely breathable in the 1970s. Now, there's very little smog. Look at 1960s pictures of Los Angeles, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, New York. That was once considered impossible. Now, it's mostly done. The only thing keeping electric cars from taking over is battery cost. Performance and range have already been fixed. Once battery…

And the fact that millions of people live in flats, condos, terraced houses with no private parking spots and they can't charge their cars overnight. Here in UK the vast majority of people I know live in places where it would be impossible to take out a charging cable at night, so the only option is...charging at work? But who will foot the bill for installing chargers at literally every single parking spot everywher…

I have an expensive American electric car and use it in Europe.

Before buying it I was worried about all the things you mention.

Now that I have been using it for some time normal cars look crazy outdated to me. Going to some place(gas stations) just to fill the tank. Why? It should be in my home, like with my electric car.

Lots of European houses have natural gas installations on homes, so why can't we just plug our vehicles to that, like we do with electric.

In any western country there are electric cables everywhere since 100 years ago or so, and most are not used at night, so it is not a big deal.

Impossible to take a charging cable at night? In the UK?.

I routinely use my car in Spain and Portugal, with no significant problems.

The only problem is that we attract significant attention everywhere we go.

Re: California Has a Plan to End the Auto Industry as We Know It

#138

Post by walshemj »

gambiting wrote: post #119
Animats wrote: post #105

The California Air Resources Board and the EPA have achieved quite a lot. Los Angeles air was barely breathable in the 1970s. Now, there's very little smog. Look at 1960s pictures of Los Angeles, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, New York. That was once considered impossible. Now, it's mostly done. The only thing keeping electric cars from taking over is battery cost. Performance and range have already been fixed. Once battery…

And the fact that millions of people live in flats, condos, terraced houses with no private parking spots and they can't charge their cars overnight. Here in UK the vast majority of people I know live in places where it would be impossible to take out a charging cable at night, so the only option is...charging at work? But who will foot the bill for installing chargers at literally every single parking spot everywher…

And the bill for updating the grid and local distribution network to cope with the higher loads.

Re: California Has a Plan to End the Auto Industry as We Know It

#139

Post by _ph_ »

danielweber wrote: post #28

What is the comparison between using energy to generate liquid fuels from atmospheric CO2 (which would be carbon neutral) and trying to electrify the entire transportation sector? Those Los Alamos guys [1] said in 2007 they could get it down to $3.40 a gallon. Okay, maybe they were wrong and/or optimistic. But, still, there is some price point at which it is break-even. What is it? Five dollars? Ten? The advantages o…

Electric cars have an efficiency of about 70-80%, if you count the losses of electrical transmission, charging and the engine. A car engine < 40%, in mixed use about 20%. So even if you could generate fuel from electricity at close to 100% - which you probably can't - the electrical car is way more efficient. And of course, even with synthetic fuel, you have some level of pollution, as no combustion engine is perfect.

Re: California Has a Plan to End the Auto Industry as We Know It

#140

Post by jonknee »

stickfigure wrote: post #120
jonknee wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... And yet CAFE has had an enormous positive effect on fleet milage in the US.

Do you have evidence for this? I seem to recall that low-mpg light trucks and SUVs were wildly popular in the US until the price of gasoline went to $4.

http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/rita.dot.gov.bts/files/pub...

Since 1980 we've gotten about 50% better mileage over all. Considering the number of cars is greater today the real effect of gas saved is even more.

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