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California Has a Plan to End the Auto Industry as We Know It

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Re: California Has a Plan to End the Auto Industry as We Know It

#111

I wonder about the infrastructure change required for electric vehicles. The bay area relies extremely heavily on on-street parking. If everything is to go electric, will there be charging stations every 15 feet along every sidewalk?

In the not very distant future cars will drive themselves to a charging center and parking needs will be greatly reduced.

Re: California Has a Plan to End the Auto Industry as We Know It

#112

I wonder about the infrastructure change required for electric vehicles. The bay area relies extremely heavily on on-street parking. If everything is to go electric, will there be charging stations every 15 feet along every sidewalk?

I read that some cities are converting their streetlights into charging posts. It seems like a very clever solution to this problem to me.

Re: California Has a Plan to End the Auto Industry as We Know It

#113
post #97
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing here, but since fleet fuel efficiency standards have been around for awhile, making cars like hybrids attractive to sell, extending that concept is natural. I would love to buy an EV right now, but charging it really wouldn't be practical for me given where I live, so it isn't really a practical option, but I believe that could change in the future. As bad as gas prices could get, it still takes some inc…

CAFE is a farce, as it it forces manufacturers to design and build cars that no one buys . It's the wrong metric. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_Average_Fuel_Economy... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_Average_Fuel_Economy > The CAFE achieved by a given fleet of vehicles in a given model year is the production-weighted harmonic mean fuel economy, expressed in miles per U.S. gallon (mpg), of a manufa…

... And yet CAFE has had an enormous positive effect on fleet milage in the US.

Re: California Has a Plan to End the Auto Industry as We Know It

#114
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That economic analysis is flawed because you're ignoring the externalities of burning gasoline (health costs, climate change). Only if there were high enough taxes on gasoline to mitigate those effects, then you could accurately do that sort of dollar-cost analysis.

Sure but then every analysis is flawed because everything has some kind of externality that's hard to measure and account for. How much fuel is burned to make the cells? How much pollution happens to mine the rare earths for the cells and the motors? It's super easy to poke holes in both sides of the argument because building a car is so damn complicated whether it's an ICE or electric.

I didn't downvote you but I really don't think it's hard to measure and account for the externalities in fossil fuels.

1. Calculate the dollar amount per pound of CO2 released that pays for enough tree planting or subsidizes enough renewables to offset the emissions.

2. Apply it as a tax to all fossil fuels and imports from countries without a comparable tax scheme.

Re: California Has a Plan to End the Auto Industry as We Know It

#115

I don't get it. Mandating that auto manufacturers sell a certain percentage of electric vehicles seems a bit like legislating the weather. If CA really wants to push people into electric vehicles, why not manipulate the demand for electric vehicles? Perhaps add another dollar or two to the gasoline tax?

Taxing gas will hurt a lot of people and wouldn't stimulate the economy since people will just stay home instead of travel. And I don't recall that many people that can afford electric car such as Tesla. Nissan Leaf might be cheaper but it still a 100 miles range IIRC. You're basically asking poor people to buy two car. One for daily travel and one to travel say from LA to LV just to play some casino games. edit: I t…

If only there were businesses that specialized in letting you use a car for a predefined period of time if you agree to pay a daily fee for the privilege...

Re: California Has a Plan to End the Auto Industry as We Know It

#116

I don't get it. Mandating that auto manufacturers sell a certain percentage of electric vehicles seems a bit like legislating the weather. If CA really wants to push people into electric vehicles, why not manipulate the demand for electric vehicles? Perhaps add another dollar or two to the gasoline tax?

You can encourage demand as much as you want, but if manufacturers are keen on selling the more profitable gas powered cars that demand will just go unfulfilled. By mandating that auto makers have to sell a quota of electric cars they have no choice but to fulfil the demand (and to create more demand if there isn't enough).

Re: California Has a Plan to End the Auto Industry as We Know It

#117
Sadly this sort of mandate leads to a very inefficient application of money to reducing pollution. After that $14,000 "subsidy" the 500e still a $32,500 car, which will appeal primarily to people who are likely replacing an already efficient late model vehicle for a tiny net carbon savings. That same $14,000 applied to the base model 500 Pop would make the price about $3,000(!) and you'd have buyers replacing old clunkers with something that gets 40 mpg and a huge net savings.

Re: California Has a Plan to End the Auto Industry as We Know It

#118
post #85

Serious question: unless all the electricity for these vehicles comes from completely renewable and environmentally friendly sources, won't banning fossil fuel emissions from motor vehicles just externalize this pollution onto electric power plants? Is there data to show that the environmental impact will be somehow lessened?

- Electric vehicles are more energy efficient. - Gasoline requires lots of transport. (Shipped across the ocean, trains, refinery, delivered to a gas station, travels with the car until burned.) - Electric vehicles last longer. - Electric vehicles can be charged with a personal solar array. - Less smog which means better health and cleaner cities. Making density more attractive is always green. - ICE cars have 152,30…

> Electric vehicles last longer.

Do they? Because ICE vehicles last decades and they don't have expensive battery packs that need replacing.

Re: California Has a Plan to End the Auto Industry as We Know It

#119

The California Air Resources Board and the EPA have achieved quite a lot. Los Angeles air was barely breathable in the 1970s. Now, there's very little smog. Look at 1960s pictures of Los Angeles, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, New York. That was once considered impossible. Now, it's mostly done. The only thing keeping electric cars from taking over is battery cost. Performance and range have already been fixed. Once battery…

And the fact that millions of people live in flats, condos, terraced houses with no private parking spots and they can't charge their cars overnight. Here in UK the vast majority of people I know live in places where it would be impossible to take out a charging cable at night, so the only option is...charging at work? But who will foot the bill for installing chargers at literally every single parking spot everywhere?

Re: California Has a Plan to End the Auto Industry as We Know It

#120
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CAFE is a farce, as it it forces manufacturers to design and build cars that no one buys . It's the wrong metric. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_Average_Fuel_Economy... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_Average_Fuel_Economy > The CAFE achieved by a given fleet of vehicles in a given model year is the production-weighted harmonic mean fuel economy, expressed in miles per U.S. gallon (mpg), of a manufa…

... And yet CAFE has had an enormous positive effect on fleet milage in the US.

Do you have evidence for this? I seem to recall that low-mpg light trucks and SUVs were wildly popular in the US until the price of gasoline went to $4.
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