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Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

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Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#901

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they are not as good your saying? From my experience eastern developers seem to need a lot of hand holding their don't seem to be many technical leads / CTO who can take broad instructions and produce a good piece of work

How did you manage to go from "IOI gold" to "not as good"?

Kind of obvious given this comment

"doing them a disservice by making them less employable."

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#902
post #864
post #836

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case it won't pay off either. It's a hard job market for mediocre engineers and many STEM fields don't even pay that much better. The vast masses of people are already on the road to hell from birth no matter what choices they make in their lives so that expression ought to enter its retirement years

I disagree that STEM fields don't pay any better. I think it's clear they do. Nature vs nurture. It's a mix, it's not all decided at birth. You always have the power to change your outcome. Many people will never exercise it effectively though.

I said many STEM fields don't necessarily pay better, not STEM in general. Obviously engineering/software/quant stuff pays off as long as you are motivated (a suprisingly large hurdle) I was thinking of various sciences like biology, pure maths, where it's heavily dependent on your location and other factors.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#903

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gaining acceptance by a tribe and finding ways to not die if you ever become disfavored seems like part of the whole hunter-gatherer package, don't you think? They tend not to be very wealthy by modern standards. Maybe you could ingratiate yourself to them with them gifts of things that require modern manufacturing infrastructure.

Your argument literally defeats itself. You were born into the tribe, and stayed there your entire life. Also there were no laws on hunting, setting traps, etc.

Golly, if hunter-gathering means I'm stuck in whatever group I was born in, and that other more organized groups can keep us off their turf, then maybe hunter-gathering just isn't that great.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#904

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

What you're decribing reminds me of something Bob Metcalfe wrote years ago (but I'm afraid I don't care enough to find the original), that is: people obsessing over getting their taxes lowered are dummies, because companies will pay positions to a particular level in the social context of their employees. If a job - such a software developer - is supposed by employees to be upper middle class, that's what a company will pay in California, or India, or Germany, or whereever. Tax rates, housing costs, what have you, will be factored into that. Hence, within the US, we immediately see companies expecting to pay remote, outside-SF employees less.

In a similar vein, you're describing a lower headline salary buying a comparable standard of living because you aren't paying a mortage-equivalent sum for healthcare and education.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#905
post #882
post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They get protection by the US military and promotion of Californian business interests throughout the world through Federal institutions. Not to mention: friction free access to a large labor pool and US domestic market etc. I get your point that the US doesn’t provide as much social services as other developed nations. Almost all these nations depend on US hegemony to not have to spend as much on their military. Thi…

WA residents get all of these things with 0% state tax, and only a bit more in property taxes. What Californians get for the extra taxes (and Washingtonians too, for that matter, for a large fraction of theirs) is a jobs program for incompetents that occasionally achieves something good as an unintended side effect; known as government. I frankly have no idea why US govts on all levels, and from all parties, seem so…

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25779342

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#906

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of folks here are calling out the lower pay for SWEs in Europe and Canada as a failure - but also praise the low wealth inequality and low income inequality in Europe and Canada. You can't have low inequality by definition if you decide to start paying one group a ton of money. Well, this is a lot like the housing conversation in the US. "I want my house to go up in value, and be a great investment!" Also: "Why…

> You can't have low inequality by definition if you decide to start paying one group a ton of money. That's true, but the question is, the higher salary you refuse to take as a SWE in Europe, does it really go instead to someone else in need of it? Or is it just pocketed by someone who already has more money than you?

Or it could be neither. Perhaps that revenue isn't being generated in the first place.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#907

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Remote work will take care of this. If by "take care of" you mean put downward pressure on European wages, then sure. Unrestricted remote competition would benefit 3rd world developers and the 1st world employers. But not the 1st world employee.

My assumption was that European devs are underpaid wrt USA and that their wages will go up as shortage of devs in USA forces them to pay up for European devs.

Your assumption forgot that remote applies to the entire world, not just the Europe. Have fun competing with team from who mirrors time zones more closely with the US.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#908
post #877

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, there are extreme examples, just like there are extreme examples in the stock market.

You can diversify in the stock market (in fact for most people investing in funds it's the default), you cannot diversify in your housing investment.

The argument is that home ownership isn't a worse risk-adjusted investment than stocks. If you know how to reduce risk in the stock market without correspondingly reducing your returns, do share.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#909

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except I wasn't talking about Ireland which has low taxes and high wages for sw devs compared to continental Europe.

Ireland does not have low taxes for individuals compared to continental Europe. Even compared to Sweden, personal taxation is comparable for high-earners, although Ireland's much more progressive and redistributive scheme results in lower taxes for low-earners, and thus a smaller tax base.

I can tell you that I’m a not terribly highly paid software dev (by US standards) in Ireland and my marginal tax rate is about 50%, and it could go up a few points if I made more. Add 40% tax on cap gains as well. And bank interest. (I get < 1 eur a year in interest, and they send 40% of it odd to revenue. Why bother? Hell if I know.)

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#910
post #877

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can diversify in the stock market (in fact for most people investing in funds it's the default), you cannot diversify in your housing investment.

The argument is that home ownership isn't a worse risk-adjusted investment than stocks. If you know how to reduce risk in the stock market without correspondingly reducing your returns, do share.

> If you know how to reduce risk in the stock market without correspondingly reducing your returns, do share.

If you want to do it without reducing your expected returns you diversify to products with similar expected returns and, to the extent practical, mutually independent risks.

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