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Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

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Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#761
post #760

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of Western/Westernized world is going to shit. Western Europe and Japan in particular have terrible demographics, which means that, unless some miracle happens (like a massive influx of immigrants who integrate well and become productive members of society), that less and less working people will have to maintain more and more non-working population. Obviously, it will lead to radical decrease of standard of liv…

Do you have link to that recording?

It's in Polish - they were heads of Polish banks and financial institutions. The one who said that was Morawiecki, a CEO of BZ WBK (which is a subsidiary Santander) at the time , who has since then became Prime Minister of Poland... There was a period in Polish politics around 5 years ago were important people were being secretly recorded by waiters in expensive restaurants, that's how this conversation got recorded and leaked.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#762

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not likely any of them will gladly accept new members.

Gaining acceptance by a tribe and finding ways to not die if you ever become disfavored seems like part of the whole hunter-gatherer package, don't you think? They tend not to be very wealthy by modern standards. Maybe you could ingratiate yourself to them with them gifts of things that require modern manufacturing infrastructure.

Your argument literally defeats itself.

You were born into the tribe, and stayed there your entire life. Also there were no laws on hunting, setting traps, etc.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#763
post #191

Europeaners seem to think getting by is just fine. They're happy that they're hyper educated, that their kids are going to be hyper educated, that their healthcare is paid for, and they get lots of vacation. Because you can't save, you are entirely dependent, in a broader sense, on the government's stability (I am not using this sentiment in a pejorative sense like some might.) Americans want their fair share of the…

> you are entirely dependent, in a broader sense, on the government's stability

It's the same in the US, take for example Trump that fought the Chinese to bring more work back home. Another president can create the opposite flow of jobs.

How many people lost heir jobs and homes during the Financial crisis of 2007–2008 ?

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#764
post #657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet Netherlands has the highest wealth inequality in the world ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_eq... ) so one could interpret this cap and the cultural attitude you described as pretty much a scam by the capital owning class to maximize their returns.

Yep. I also never understood why Europeans focus so much on income inequality ( "OMG, programmers and managers get paid too much, tax them more!" ) and not wealth inequality where old, established families can keep rolling their wealth from generation to generation nearly tax-free and see their assets apreciate substantially while the working class bares the brunt of taxation and are getting squeezed every year more…

That's one of the saddest things about extremism. People get disenfranchised by their existing leaders. Then they are desperate for new political blood because they don't understand the underlying problems. Clueless people who promise exactly what you want to hear start leading parties and fight the wrong battle.

Income inequality is driven by wealth inequality. The wealthiest people don't get compensated in dollars, they get compensated in equity and if that equity is going up, companies can afford to pay more to their executives.

Wealth inequality is driven by domestic economic demand shifting away. It is either concentrating in a few economic hot spots (urbanization), moving to other countries (globalization) and through central bank money that sits around in asset markets. There are probably lots of other factors but they are increasingly less impactful.

Urbanization is not necessarily a bad thing if there is enough housing and people can move to the new location, except not enough housing is built and existing residents hate the new arrivals.

Globalization is not necessarily a bad thing if it also drives foreign demand. Turns out, the Chinese really love buying foreign real estate but nobody is building the luxury apartments they want. So they have to buy less luxurious housing and drive up prices in the middle and affordable segment of the housing market.

Central bank money is not necessarily a bad thing if the money is used effectively. The government can help the economy by providing cheaper funding to companies during bad years when there is lots of work to be done. But what if the economy isn't in a bad year and merely refusing to grow? It means that there is already enough funding but not enough demand for services and workers. In that case you also have to apply the government stimulus on the demand side as well. But that's not what central banks do. They can't do it by definition because that's not their responsibility. The central banks are separated from the rest of government because the government can just abuse it's money printing powers to fund endless debt and cause hyperinflation. However, when it's the central bank that is doing the endless printing people don't seem to care, somehow most economists care even less and will assert that even moderate demand side stimulus will eventually lead to the slippery slope of hyperinflation.

Ultimately history will just repeat. A war is a quick and easy way to get rid of excess workers. It is also a quick and easy way to provide demand side stimulus in a political environment where more sensible options are considered impossible. It's like political capital is like money. Once you have run out you are going to be extremely desperate and are willing to do anything no matter how stupid. Running out of political capital is the reason why Keynesian gold digging is even a thing in the first place. All good options have been exhausted, anything that follows is batshit insane but it is also the only thing that can be done.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#765

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could [...] I have worked 20 years in the same job and so have my colleagues. Honestly this part of the European mentality is hard for an outsider understand. I lived there for ~10 years and heard this argument countless times. I want a fulfilling life and part of that is a fulfilling job. It's hard to believe a job on the same company can be fulfilli…

Fwiw, I did change and change back. If I was working in web/db/internet stuff there would be much more jobs of the same kind. Then I’d switch more too I think. The reason I’m sticking is also because I work in a niche (which I like).

I want a fulfilling job perhaps more than I want to make more money, which is why I don't switch from a fulfilling one!

Switching every two years to make more money would invariably mean that you switch from fulfilling jobs to less fulfilling ones (Assuming no fulfilment comes from the switch itself)!

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#766

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People who think being a hunter-gatherer sounds great should go try it, there's nothing stopping them from doing so. Well, I mean, except property rights and the people that will defend them in most of the places in the planet suitable for human habitation.

you can make a simpler experiment: try going a week with only food you can forage in nearby forests and fields, plus some meat you'd buy (you're not expected to be able to hunt). I love eating wild weeds and berries, but it takes _a lot_ of time to get enough to fill yourself, and it's not a case that people have only eaten stuff like acorns only in times of famine. This fact by itself made me question a lot of what'…

a tropical island wull give results very different to like a siberean forest.

Also from what i gather most meat was aquired from trapping, rather than hunting

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#767
post #697

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I got here by taking no risk at all. This is the most European thing I've ever heard. Most people would not like to take risks and would not even think about stepping outside of their comfort zone. Personally, I think this is the reason why there are less startups in Europe compared to US. No one would like to take a risk unless it's absolutely necessary. > I have worked 20 years in the same job and so have my coll…

> Changing your job is part of your career growth in-order to expose yourself to new challenges, problems and new environments. A lot of people prefer work to live, while others prefer live to work. Both strategies are perfectly fine.

Yes, but you have to live with the consequences of your life choices.

If you just "work to live", then you'll be just an average employee, with average salary. High salaries and other perks are for high performers.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#768
post #657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet Netherlands has the highest wealth inequality in the world ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_eq... ) so one could interpret this cap and the cultural attitude you described as pretty much a scam by the capital owning class to maximize their returns.

Yep. I also never understood why Europeans focus so much on income inequality ( "OMG, programmers and managers get paid too much, tax them more!" ) and not wealth inequality where old, established families can keep rolling their wealth from generation to generation nearly tax-free and see their assets apreciate substantially while the working class bares the brunt of taxation and are getting squeezed every year more…

Yes exactly. People get up in arms about things they are told to get up in arms about. Many people either don't know how much of Europe's wealth is concentrated in old families, or don't care because they're not told to care.

For example, BMW. It is simply ugh. At least with US companies you know they'll do right by shareholders for better or for worse. If you invest in a German company you might as well be pissing your money away because they'll always do what's right for the heirs.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#769

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn’t say deserve - but since switching jobs is a chore, I’d want to be compensated for it. I don’t think it’s a job that should necessarily make me very rich though. Taking risk should, but just creating value that someone else can produce? There is talent scarcity but not that much scarcity. Other people would do my job at my pay (which I guess ties into the topic!) With the highest salaries perhaps 20-40% highe…

I think there is a comparable amount of value created between you and someone in USA, its just that in Europe managers capture more % of the profit. Its not an issue of scarcity (that makes sens only for the whole playing ground) but of distribution after the scarcity is already priced in.

Or perhaps everything is just cheaper in Europe. If customers get more for less, B2B must also be cheaper, and software is cheaper.

There doesn't have to be someone capturing profit if the whole industry is priced lower.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#770

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That does sound like a pretty stress-free way to live! That said, living in Europe doesn't always equal good living conditions and stability - it depends on the particular country you're in as well. My net salary is just over 1000€ per month as a software dev. My living expenses eat up around half of that. If a quick search turns up that in USA the median salary for a dev is around 100k$ per year ( https://money.usne…

> My net salary is just over 1000€ That's really low, even for poorer European countries. Decent middle-level software engineer in, let's say, Ukraine (no offense meant - it is a good country, just isn't one famous for high incomes), easily makes at least 2k (and I say "at least" - that's awfully underpaid). > that means that i'd need anywhere from ~8 to ~14 years to save as much as they could in a year That's a bit…

If Ukraine legitimately has an average net salary of 2k for a SWE it's better than the actually good parts of the EU. I really, really doubt that this is true.
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