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Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

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Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#871

Post by fatnoah »

arcticbull wrote: post #85
alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

A lot of folks here are calling out the lower pay for SWEs in Europe and Canada as a failure - but also praise the low wealth inequality and low income inequality in Europe and Canada. You can't have low inequality by definition if you decide to start paying one group a ton of money. Well, this is a lot like the housing conversation in the US. "I want my house to go up in value, and be a great investment!" Also: "Why…

I live in the US, in a major East Coast city. FAANG level income lets me live a fairly worry-free life in a nice neighborhood, including a nice 2-3 bedroom flat and a private school. It's a tremendous luxury, for which I'm greatly appreciative.

Many of my colleagues in Europe, make far less than 1/2 of what I do from a compensation perspective. However, they're able to live essentially the same lifestyle I am. Nice flat in a vibrant, walkable, top-tier urban locale with the ability to afford most things in life. They're able to do so because they have less worry about surprise medical bills, paying to care for their elders, saving $200k for the kids' college, etc. My employment is also at will. I can leave or be forced to leave at a moment's notice.

Obviously, I'm only offering anecdotes here, but (IMHO) once that lifestyle moves out of reach, then companies will be forced to increase pay.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#872

Post by throwaway894345 »

oblio wrote: post #855
throwaway894345 wrote: post #834

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not following your point; we might even agree. My point was: despite less legal protection, American SWEs still enjoy a lot of security even during a pandemic (which isn’t a tech crisis but still dramatically impacted many tech companies). Because I make like 80% more than what I would make in Europe, I also am able to save and invest (6 months expenses saved up in a savings account). I also give a good portion t…

My point was that we haven't had a job crisis in the software field, for a while. That would be a true test. I have no idea when it will happen but it's reasonable to assume that nothing keeps going up forever.

Fair enough, but it only tells you how each system performs under anomalously bad events (I don't think this is a "true test"). And to my earlier point, when you're making 80% more than you would in Europe, you can save a lot of money to float you through hard times. Notably, I still don't think you'd be particularly well-off in Europe--European worker protection rights don't help if your company goes under, and you won't have a cushy savings account. I'm guessing unemployment is a bit better than in the US, and obviously healthcare will be better, but on balance I don't think your average SWE would be any better off. Of course, this doesn't extrapolate beyond the upper-middle-class and above; poorer Americans are almost certainly worse-off than their European counterparts (and I want to see that remedied).

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#873

Post by gamechangr »

HenryKissinger wrote: post #245
MuffinFlavored wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If hypothetically every engineer at Apple hired in 2017 got $100k/yr https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Apple&track=Software%20Engin... ICT2: $165k ICT3: $214k ICT4: $315k ICT5: $440k ICT6: $681k Point: $100k/yr total comp is pretty low for Apple's standards.

Apple has only 16,000 engineers. Landing a software engineering internship at Apple is extremely difficult. Landing a full time job as a software engineer at Apple is even more difficult. The people we're talking about are a small caste of privileged individuals. Their salaries do not reflect the norm of othet software engineers in the US.

His example has nothing to do with Apple really.

He means every publicly traded tech company with stock and how the collective market (though stock options) increases the money a SWE would make verses saying paying market value for a dentist that might be compensated well but has no competitive stock options to overcome.

Great point

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#874

Post by esoterica »

ivan1783 wrote: post #483
esoterica wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taking a $200k pay cut to get a couple weeks of extra vacation, government healthcare (which is only a marginal upgrade if you already have high quality private insurance) and better job security seems like a raw deal to me.

Not having to save for your kids education will already offset that, if you look at American university prices.

That doesn’t cost $200k for each working year of your life.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#875

Post by irrational »

oblio wrote: post #561
irrational wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No? How could you possibly get that from what I said? Quite the opposite. I'm saying that they (developers in Europe) should be able to be paid the same as developers in the USA.

Your solution doesn't scale. How many devs can do this? 1%? 5%? 20%? What about the rest?

At my company it is 100%. And we are not a FAANG company. I have a sister in law that works as a developer in another non-FAANG company that makes about $100k more than me. I don’t think it is as rare as you think for developers to have good benefits and high salaries.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#876

Post by tuckerpo »

irrational wrote: post #171
alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

I graduated with 2 bachelors degrees and a masters degree with no debt through scholarships and grants. I have saved nothing for my children’s education. If they want to attend college, it is on them to pay their way just as it was for me. I’ve told them that I will help a bit during their first year. My company matches my retirement savings up to 5%. I save nothing else for retirement. I should have millions of doll…

> I have saved nothing for my children’s education. If they want to attend college, it is on them to pay their way just as it was for me.

That's a pretty scuffed mindset, man. Set your kids up for success. There's no virtue is going head first into crippling debt.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#877

Post by sershe »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #846
gfxgirl wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't that really depend on where and culture? If you bought a house in Detroit in 1965 you aren't likely doing well today. If you bought in San Francisco in 2019 you're probably under today (though that may fix itself). If you bought in Japan almost anywhere you now have a used house which like a used car only goes down in value. If you're lucky the land goes up but condos/apartments you don't usually own the land…

Yes, there are extreme examples, just like there are extreme examples in the stock market.

You can diversify in the stock market (in fact for most people investing in funds it's the default), you cannot diversify in your housing investment.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#878

Post by curryst »

fatnoah wrote: post #871
arcticbull wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of folks here are calling out the lower pay for SWEs in Europe and Canada as a failure - but also praise the low wealth inequality and low income inequality in Europe and Canada. You can't have low inequality by definition if you decide to start paying one group a ton of money. Well, this is a lot like the housing conversation in the US. "I want my house to go up in value, and be a great investment!" Also: "Why…

I live in the US, in a major East Coast city. FAANG level income lets me live a fairly worry-free life in a nice neighborhood, including a nice 2-3 bedroom flat and a private school. It's a tremendous luxury, for which I'm greatly appreciative. Many of my colleagues in Europe, make far less than 1/2 of what I do from a compensation perspective. However, they're able to live essentially the same lifestyle I am. Nice f…

> They're able to do so because they have less worry about surprise medical bills, paying to care for their elders, saving $200k for the kids' college, etc.

I think that makes up a large part of the difference. In the US, those things are pay on use. In Europe, they're done through taxes that everyone pays.

If you don't have kids, that can be a substantial difference. I do not, so I don't have to pay into a college fund, or pay for healthcare for kids, or private school, etc, etc.

I think once you take it as a given that you pay for those things one way or another, it evens out a bit. Probably slanted a little bit towards more pay in the US, but not by nearly the gap between a single 20-something SWE in the US vs the EU.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#879

Post by tilolebo »

I wish European companies would offer stock options as part of their compensation package.

The only European company that offered me something similar was SAP and it was a ridiculous one time 9k EUR.

The American 4-year vesting system is much more attractive. But somehow EU startups won't do that.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#880

Post by pm90 »

joshuaissac wrote: post #799
pm90 wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They get protection by the US military and promotion of Californian business interests throughout the world through Federal institutions. Not to mention: friction free access to a large labor pool and US domestic market etc. I get your point that the US doesn’t provide as much social services as other developed nations. Almost all these nations depend on US hegemony to not have to spend as much on their military. Thi…

> They get protection by the US military and promotion of Californian business interests throughout the world through Federal institutions. Not to mention: friction free access to a large labor pool and US domestic market etc. And Washingtonians do not? What you wrote does not address the question that the parent poster asked.

The Washingtonians part was added by the OP after I made my comment. Originally it was a comparison of CA with European states only.
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