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Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

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Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#641

Post by lovecg »

ivan_gammel wrote: post #429
etothepii wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read "Sapiens" 35 hour working week as a hunter gather is far preferable to the 60 + home chores of the homo softwaricus.

I would not refer to Harari in any context as an author worth reading. „Sapiens“ is a popular book, but scientifically it’s at least questionable.

I think you have to approach it with a certain mindset. I didn’t read it as a source of reliable history, but I definitely got a lot of value out of it. He has a way of presenting ideas from perspectives I haven’t considered before. In fact disagreeing with him and trying to find evidence against his often too simple narratives is a fun exercise on its own, and I learned a lot just from those tangents.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#642

Post by kgwgk »

alkonaut wrote: post #557
barnacled wrote: post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly think this is a completely wrong-headed way of looking at things. You are paid what you're paid not because the company is determining what is 'fair' given all of your circumstances, but rather the minimum they feel they can get away with. Nearly all employees would accept more pay if they were offered it, nearly all employers would pay less if they could - so like any market it is always an equilibrium be…

> rather the minimum they feel they can get away with. I completely agree. I certainly would accept more pay. But I wouldn't switch jobs just to get it . There are several reasons, most importantly that interesting jobs in my niche are scarce. So my employer has a resource that is perhaps scarcer than myself!. Second (and this is the part where it becomes self-fulfilling), because there are no super high salaries, I'…

> If marginal taxes are 50% (..) that's a net 25% pay rise

Only if you’re not paying any taxes currently :-)

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#643

Post by selimthegrim »

kimburgess wrote: post #510
FlyingSnake wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have come to the same realisation. I would rather have a better quality of life than I had in US than to get tons of $$ and live off in a gated community. Great public transport, healthcare, schools, world class Unis, top notch research institutes, and great cultural institutes. The Gemeinschaft approach works here because you need to contribute back to the society in order to reap it's benefits.

100% this. As an outside observer, the US is country with an almost impressive list of societal issues. Inequality aside, it's filled with a hermit-like population with little to no knowledge of the world outside its borders unless they visited it as part of military action, failing power structures, regular school shootings, suicide bombings, riots, an uncontrolled pandemic, insurrection, religious extremists and a…

Wait what suicide bombings (barring Nashville)

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#644

Post by qwytw »

arcticbull wrote: post #126
betaby wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't call Canadian (or Fr or Se) wealth inequality 'low'. 'Why I can't afford a house', again is more a problem in Fr/De/Se than in US, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_owne...

Inequality in Canada is substantially lower than in America (and is on par with Australia, and between Fr and Se). This is evidenced in their Gini coefficients. [1] - Gini for SE is 0.25 - Gini for FR is 0.31 - Gini for CA is 0.33 - Gini for US is 0.48 - Gini for ZA is 0.65 I've also included South Africa for comparison, one of the least equal societies on earth. A photo of what a 0.65 Gini country looks like is here…

However you look at wealth inequality Sweden is actually the most unequal country in that list:

SE is 0.867 FR is 0.687 CA is 0.726 US is 0.852 ZA is 0.806

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#645

Post by taneq »

killtimeatwork wrote: post #562
taneq wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or starvation, or being eaten by a grue. People who think being a hunter-gatherer sounds great should go try it, there's nothing stopping them from doing so. They don't because actually, living in civilization with abundant cheap food, clean running hot and cold water, indoor plumbing, heating, air conditioning, and entertainment is great.

This argument is a fallacy. There's plenty of stuff stopping me from being a successful hunter-gatherer: 1. HGs are very skilled, and they build their skills throughout their lives - crucially, starting with childhood and adolescence. I, an adult brought up in a Western civilization, would be totally clueless in a rain forest the same way that those HGs would be totally clueless in our world. 2. HGs live in groups. I…

I guess I should have said "there's nothing stopping them except lack of will to do the required work." Which I guess makes sense since the motivation generally seems to be a desire for a return to some noble-savage-in-Eden life of plenty and ease.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#646

Post by [deleted] »

alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#647

Post by blub »

overscore wrote: post #614
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really true. Being a dev in sweden does not put you in the mid-upper class (lawyers, doctors, footballers, celebrieties, bankers, management consulting) FAANG salaries would help close that gap.

In Ireland, software developers with similar levels of experience earn significantly more than doctors, lawyers, management consultants and most bankers. There's only a tiny number of footballers, celebrities, bankers, and non-software consultants who earn more than the software developers as a class.

It would be helpful to include some numbers with the above comment :)

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#648

Post by [deleted] »

passerby1 wrote: post #590
newswasboring wrote: post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, its a fundamental mistake to assume that a Government can provide effective social services without having a strong economy. Strong economies require successful businesses. Umm... I would say the social services in european countries are pretty successful.

It can depend on what to compare them to (and for what class, which changes a lot in terms on access to commercial clinics, etc.). What countries are you comparing to?

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#649

Post by mytailorisrich »

adrianN wrote: post #473
throwaway894345 wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Home process in the US are historically very stable. I would think this is also true in Europe? As for diversification, your house shouldn’t be your only investment. As for fires and natural disasters, this is why insurance exists. Owning a home isn’t for everyone, but I don’t think there’s anything particularly risky about it as far as investments go.

Buying a home in a tolerable location costs at least 200k in my area and upkeep isn't free either. I can rent an apartment in a much better area for fifteen to twenty years for just the initial investment. A house can easily lose its value or at least cause large expenses, e.g. if the cellar floods or develops mold problems. Or if the surrounding neighborhood becomes worse. Selling houses has a large transaction cost…

> I'd rather have 200k in a diversified portfolio that earns me 5k a year

From a financial point of you a difference is that to do this you need to have 200k cash, while you can borrow most of the money to buy a 200k house.

There is a leveraging effect when investing in property.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#650

Post by iso1631 »

slap wrote: post #113
iso1631 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$200k is £146k I've seen mid-level tech jobs in London banks for £146k which come with 34 days off including state holidays like new years day, christmas, etc £146k for a full time contractor on 226 days a year isn't that much at all - £650 a day, which is in the "Senior developer" range [0] With 30% tax in the US and the cost of health insurance, that would be $68,400 For a staff employee on £146k (which is quite ac…

The whole IT contractor bonanza at £650/day is being killed off by the government in April 2021. Also perm developer jobs in London are at around £100k at the 90th percentile, nowhere near £160k See https://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/jobs/london/developer.do

How is it being killed off? You might have to pay a bit more tax (either before as part of employer NI, or after), but £650/day isn't an abnormally high rate.

I was looking at the following job last month which was advertised at £200k

Software Engineer needed for award winning tech focused hedge fund run by passionate computer scientists. Sells Flexible hours/work options Technologists only report to technologists Programmers treated as top commodity so ‘spoiled’ Very friendly/collaborative people Cutting-edge tech Multiple greenfield projects No red tape Beautiful offices Small team size in a growing company so able to make a significant impact Role Build and optimise new cutting-edge platforms to back-test, research & trade quantitative strategies Predict models to automatically invest, design and develop trading platforms Performance optimisation & building robust intelligent solutions to problems

And this one at £150k

My client is a specialist quantitative asset management company that takes pride in having a distinct culture and approach to working with technology. With a tech driven and relaxed feel in the heart of London. They are looking for an outstanding Low-latency Network Engineer. The successful candidate will be a key engineer in the company and will be designing, building and managing critical network infrastructure and automating all work.

Now sure, not everyone is paid those, but not everyone is paid $500k in america either. trcollinson was a on a gross of less than $200k as a contractor. Based on his hours that's $800 a day, or £586 a day, or £660 a day if you include Employer NI.

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