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Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

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Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Monster.com job listings in the US by keyword: .NET - 1000+ positions Java - 1000+ positions PHP - 454 positions Python - 295 positions Ruby - 280 positions Node.js - 55 positions Lisp, Haskell, Scheme - 0 positions

Quantity is not the same as Quality. I expect to find a larger percentage of competent programmers for the python/ruby jobs than for the .net/java jobs. Every job I've had so far seems to prove this true.

Who is talking about quality? OP posted that the majority of development jobs are within .NET and PHP. Some guy gave the low-brow dismissal "was this in India by any chance?". I just supplied position numbers from one of the largest job sites in the US, confirming that .NET and PHP jobs (adding Java), really are the most plentiful in the US by far.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Monster.com job listings in the US by keyword: .NET - 1000+ positions Java - 1000+ positions PHP - 454 positions Python - 295 positions Ruby - 280 positions Node.js - 55 positions Lisp, Haskell, Scheme - 0 positions

Not everyone hires through Monster (or LinkedIn). Most of my hiring is done through networking.

Yes the majority of positions are never listed publicly, so numbers from Monster is only the tip of the iceberg. But that goes for all positions regardless of language. If you have 5 times the listed positions for one tech over the other, it would be logical to assume the amount of unlisted positions have roughly the same ratio.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correct, but I mentioned ‘Microsoft’ and the ‘Windows keyboard’ because the original IBM PC keyboards did not have a ‘Windows’ key. Original Macs did have a ‘command’ key. I suspect ‘Kayoone’ was referring to the functionality of the ‘alt’ and ‘ctrl’ keys on a Mac keyboard versus what those keys do in Windows. For example, in Windows, ‘ctrl-C‘ is used to copy, while on OS X, it’s done with ‘command-C’. The pl…

Not only the ctrl+command key but also the behavior for HOME/END/POS1 when selecting text etc. That makes it really hard for me to transition between Linux/Windows and OSX..if it werent for that i wouldnt really care which OS i use. I already changed to the US keyboard layout which makes this alot better, the standard german Mac Layout is just total garbage.

Sorry, I don’t use of those keys. I can see how differing behavior of those keys could cramp your style, but your original argument was that Apple is to blame for that. I don’t think history is on your side there.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#514

I don't think people hate MS, they just don't even think about them. Whenever I am at tech events(usually web related ones) MS isn't openly criticised, they're not even discussed as an option. I spend about 50% of my time developing .net apps and the other half on linux/web stuff so I'm pretty familiar with the MS tech stack and it always feels very clunky and outdated. MS hasn't created a really compelling consumer…

"it always feels very clunky and outdated." - can you elaborate? And please don't mention Java, JavaScript, C++ as those are all old and barely evolving. Web - maybe (Ruby is quite good at one specific thing). I would like to hear about something that makes e.g. TPL and Rx "clunky and outdated". I would like to see something that beats Visual Studio + R#.

It's mainly things like the lack of a good package manager for provisioning, inexplicably large installers, sub-par automation, inscrutable GUI's packed with useless features, having to RDP into a server to perform basic tasks rather than just using SSH, massive bloat(why is everything so huge?), a general disregard for dev ops.

Also I find the licencing really irritating when creating VMs and servers. In the end thinking something "feels" old and clunky is a subjective perception but every time I use MS products it feels like they were created with little or no insight or knowledge into what anyone else is doing, leading to a lot of NIH syndrome.

Absolutely garbage browsers are also a big problem, I know IE 10 is passable but in 4 years when it hasn't been updated and people using Win7 and 8 are stuck using it, it will be the IE6 of its day.

Don't get me wrong, I used MS products basically exclusively for the first 5 years of my developer career, and still use them a fair bit now, and thought it was amazing, it's not until you move outside that bubble and start using better tools and methodologies that you realise how far behind they are.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being driven off the front page due to lack of upvotes is completely different from having the article killed due to flagging or automatically for other reasons. People who think all Microsoft proponents are shills are...well, Slashdot already exists, so why do they bother hanging out here? If you aren't interested in something, don't upvote it, but please don't take a dump on it either.

I said "some Microsoft proponents", as in a couple, a loud minority, etc...

Can you provide me with examples that you've had experience with? If anything, I've noticed that any remotely pro-MS gets drowned out very quickly.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was trying to get into the developer game (I'm self-taught with no degree so couldn't follow the normal progression) the biggest market in my hometown was (and still is) for .NET developers. So, I joined a .NET user group, I installed VS, I started learning. Problem was, MS was churning out the "next great thing" faster than I could learn the last great thing. While I was getting my head around WinForms, WPF c…

>Problem was, MS was churning out the "next great thing" >faster than I could learn the last great thing. Same here. I design databases, and MS kept bringing new data access methods every three years; I never could wrap my head around the ADO/DAO difference, but that did not matter for long because both were replaced by .Net I sincerely wondered if this was not a deliberate tactic by Microsoft : while developpers are…

> Meanwhile I learned how to use an OSS lamp stack and have been happily using it for the last 10 years. Very stable and reliable, I could not be happier.

I find that Java's biggest problem (stability/stagnation depending on who you ask) is also the JVM development ecosystem's benefit. There's not one body driving adoption of technologies by deciding what's supported and what's not, so technology choice is less dictated by economic imperatives.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#517
post #363

I (speaking for myself, obviously, not anyone else on HN) don't hate Microsoft. I use Windows! Windows 8 in fact! For context because I'm sure some people (I do think there is an anti-MS bias here on HN, though not as pronounced as OP thinks it is) may think I'm some stereotypical Microsoft-using rube. I grew up in the 80s, programming first on the C64 (BASIC, 6510 Assembler), then Amiga, then various UNIX systems (S…

Under the assumption that you're a developer, how do you deal with the lack of a great Terminal/Command line interface on Windows?

Powershell is actually pretty cool if you embrace it for what it is and don't try to use it like a unix shell.

Of course, through Cygwin, MingW, et al you can also just run bash or whatever shell you want on Windows.

To be honest I don't spend a ton of time in terminal windows on Windows for some of the reasons others mentioned, though I do tend to constantly be using the shell on the Linux VMs I mentioned (often just sshed into a local VM).

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everyone hires through Monster (or LinkedIn). Most of my hiring is done through networking.

Yes the majority of positions are never listed publicly, so numbers from Monster is only the tip of the iceberg. But that goes for all positions regardless of language. If you have 5 times the listed positions for one tech over the other, it would be logical to assume the amount of unlisted positions have roughly the same ratio.

It's impossible to verify this statement since the positions are never published. I have a strong feeling the most boring companies have to resort more to professional recruiters while the most fun to work for can rely on networking.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#519
post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many thanks. > Modern computers (even desktop/laptop) are much more similar to those workstations than to DOS-era consumer PCs. Absolutely. Current computers are totally unreal, off the tops of the charts, as you noted, well beyond what Sun, SGI, etc. were selling 10-15 years ago. But 10-15 years ago I was using x86 at much lower cost. > There's the customizability side. You say that you're not in the business of too…

I think you will struggle to hire good programmers willing to work in VB.NET. (For myself, I wouldn't take a job in anything short of scala or haskell. These aren't "easy" languages; in fact stereotypically they're "hard", but they allow me to write in a few lines something that would be dozens of repetitions of a pattern in a less powerful language. Programming in something else is boring and repetitive by compariso…

> For myself, I wouldn't take a job in anything short of scala or haskell.

Amazing.

> You said before you were confident in the microsoft platform because of the large, busy websites using it; are any of those built on VB.NET?

That about has to be the case: What is usually mentioned is C#, but as far as I know what is doable in C# is always or nearly so also doable in VB.NET. C# supports Lambda expressions, and I'm not yet sure that VB.NET does. It may be easier to write efficient, polymorphic code in C# than VB.NET. And there may be some other differences. But assuming C# or VB.NET for the language, the rest about has to be ASP.NET (with or without model-view-controller, MVC), ADO.NET, SQL Server, IIS, the .NET Framework, JavaScript, maybe some server side GDI or GDI+ for manipulating images, etc.

Apparently the big deal for a big Web server farm built on the Microsoft platform is ASP.NET and IIS and the more advanced features of those two. E.g., I'm sure there are ways to cache Web pages, but I haven't gotten to them yet and likely won't before revenue if only because the more important pages have to be built one at a time and couldn't be cached; the Web pages that could be cached are so small that it's not worth the bother to set up page caching.

> Maybe the problem you're solving isn't really a technical one, and that's fine

The core of my site is quite technical as applied math, but the users will never see that. And the programming for the applied math I've already done and likely won't need to redo for a long time if ever.

The rest of the programming will be routine for a Web site or a business and, thus, for a language, well within the capabilities of VB.NET.

> Sounds like you think you don't really need much actual programming.

For the routine business programming, I don't know how much will be needed. But I did select SQL Server instead of some simpler no-SQL due to anticipating needing in time much of the power of a real relational database.

> maybe you'll be fine with mediocre programmers

I want bright people, but I'm not too impressed with "top" "programmers". If I had some really challenging software to write, say, for reliability, then I might prefer a bright pure math major to a bright computer science major. If the math major needs something tricky in computer science, then he could chat an afternoon with a computer science prof and find, say, what pages in, maybe, something by Sedgewick to read. Otherwise I'd hire bright, well motivated, people with an interest in computing from some majors other than math or computer science.

I might be missing something about Scala or Haskell, but so far what I see in nearly all production programming on Windows is a little 'glue' in a language like VB.NET connecting a lot of 'bricks' from the .NET Framework, ASP.NET, ..., T-SQL, etc. So the VB.NET is define a function, pass some arguments, define and allocate some storage inside the function, operate on the data via if-then-else, do-while, expressions, call-return, try-catch, use the APIs, and then return. I see no way to get around using the 'bricks', and the 'glue' code is so small that I see no great savings in having a better way to do it.

Thanks for your help.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#520
post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under the assumption that you're a developer, how do you deal with the lack of a great Terminal/Command line interface on Windows?

It's like asking people from the future how do they deal with the lack of internal combustion engines. Well, we kind of don't need them in most cases. Because things evolved. GUI has been invented long enough for everyone to catch up.

You should contact Microsoft and tell them that creating PowerShell was a mistake because GUIs are the future. I'm sure they'll weigh your "GUIs are the future" argument carefully, as we have.
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