Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#501

Post by yuhong » Wed, Oct 23, 2013, 7:50 PM UTC

eksith wrote: post #273

jlgreco wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is PG. If he doesn't think it is just a bunch of well-meaning commenters coincidentally behind the same NAT, then I am inclined to believe him. Anyway, do you know what I do when there are discussions online about my employer? I stay the fuck out of it. I think that is good policy, unless participating in those discussions is part of your job description. Best case scenario here: a bunch of well-meaning Microsof…

Anyway, do you know what I do when there are discussions online about my employer? I stay the fuck out of it. This is an excellent policy. Employee participation (unless they're CEO/Founder, CTO or some combination thereof that can speak with authority) will almost invariably lead to problems. It's good that some employees feel "passionate" and "enthusiastic" about their company/product, but if that's left unchecked…

I don't think this is good policy in this day and age.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#502

Post by mattwallaert » Wed, Oct 23, 2013, 7:59 PM UTC

antonpug wrote: post #438

exodust wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't wait for filtering technology that detects intelligence in comments. If intelligence found, display comment. MS has made flops, but also products they've worked hard on and made good over time. All tech companies have shitty things happen in their product life. Even car manufacturers. First-gen Mitsubishi Outlander - not a great car. Avoid. 2nd gen Outlander and above (2006+), new engine, better design, better…

I am probably the least biased person when it comes to technology - I love Apple's hardware and software, I hate Apple maps and iTunes, but I love Google Maps and I hate Google Search. I like Bing as my search engine - Bing is nice, I'll give Microsoft that. Most other products, historically are crap. Microsoft always half-asses things and comes up with products that are irrelevant to the end user. Windows 8? I'd say…

Sorry, I'm a little confused as to how you think Microsoft has historically made products that are "irrelevant to the end user", when Microsoft powers the majority of computing activity worldwide and has for more 20 years.

What it feels like you may instead be trying to say is "I don't like Windows 8 and think Linux/OS X are better", which is certainly a valid opinion statement. I wouldn't, however, labor under the misunderstanding that Microsoft doesn't care about users - hyperbole aside, do you actually think that of a company of about 100K people doesn't care about other people?

If you've ever worked on a big tech product, you know that agonizing amounts of attention are spent worrying about even the smallest details. Ultimately, that might mean that we don't always make the best possible decision, but I think it would be tough to say that Microsoft "half-assed" much.

It makes sense that you don't like the product; not everyone does. But it seems foolish to equate your dislike with a) it being objectively bad, b) it being half-assed, c) it being irrelevant (particularly when it plays a huge role in the world), or d) that the people creating it don't care about it or you. Indeed, d) is particularly important - isn't it grand that you live in a tech world where someone like me, who works at Microsoft, cares about your thoughts and feelings, even though you don't use Windows?

Microsoft (and many other companies) don't just care about the people who use our products...we also care about the people who don't.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#503

Post by orclev » Wed, Oct 23, 2013, 8:03 PM UTC

devrelm wrote: post #439

maaaats wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meh, some of the tools are like vim. Hard to get started, great when you know them. It sounds to me like you are hating because you didn't spend enough time using these things.

That's what I'm getting out of pretty much this entire post. As an asp.net mvc developer by trade, I could easily say that it could take me hours/days to get stuff done in node.js/rails/django/name-your-framework, that I could otherwise get done in minutes in mvc. Of course, I'm self-aware enough to realize that it's because I have 4 consecutive years of experience with .net, but only a cumulative of maybe a few mont…

I've worked with a lot of languages and a lot of frameworks over the years, and the ones from Microsoft are always hands down the most needlessly complicated and poorly documented of the bunch. PHP may be a double claw hammer, but at least it's a really well documented double claw hammer. MVC includes at least 5 different kinds of double claw hammer, a normal hammer, a combination hammer/chainsaw, a mislabeled jar of nitric acid, and a swiss army knife, and half complete and half accurate documentation of 2/3rds of it.

You like MVC because you've basically spent the time to find all the good bits and just pretend all the tons and tons of horrible bits don't exist. Good for you, but that also means anyone new to basically any MS tech has to spend years learning where all the mines are buried, when instead they could use basically any other tech stack in the world and not have to worry about navigating a mine field in the first place.

Oh, and just for fun every 5 years or so MS deprecates that particular mine field, lays a new one, and forces everyone to go play in the new minefield instead.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#504

Post by mattwallaert » Wed, Oct 23, 2013, 8:04 PM UTC

Mustafabei wrote: post #308

A majority of power users do not particularly enjoy Microsoft products, and they have their reasons. Those are based on rational decisions i.e. lack of efficiency, support, integrity etc. "Hate" is someting different. If you think people hate MS, ask them specifically what they do not like. Maybe THEY CAN'T EVEN GET TO SAY WHAT THEY DO NOT LIKE about the product and discomfort grows into hate? just saying.

Actually, Microsoft has very easy feedback systems by which you can tell us what you think about basically every single product we have. So you can freely say what you don't like - you can even do it here and probably even get a few employees like me to answer back.

As for your contention that people's feelings about Microsoft are based on rational decision making - are you making the case that that is true of the majority of users? If so, that case seems fundamentally untrue. Look at studies of Bing results versus Google results: in a brand-blind test, people prefer Bing over Google. If you switch the label, the thing people prefer most is Google brand with Bing results. It is abundantly clear that there is much more to how people feel about Microsoft than rationality, and I can't think of a credible scientist who would say otherwise.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#505

Post by erbo » Wed, Oct 23, 2013, 8:15 PM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #206

Do you recall anything of the 1990's? IE 6? Embrace, extend, and extinguish? The Halloween documents? Microsoft's conviction of anticompetitive business practices left unpunished when the Bush administration took over? The decades of terrible products?

And let's not forget their use of SCO as a sock puppet with which to attack and possibly destroy Linux (see: perhaps 50% of the Groklaw archives).

Note: There may not be a "smoking gun" that establishes M$ as the true force behind the SCO v. world+dog lawsuits, but there's enough circumstantial evidence out there to establish "probable cause." Besides, if Linux were to suddenly be outlawed and/or made non-free as the result of a court decision going SCO's way, cui bono?

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#506

Post by thisisauserid » Wed, Oct 23, 2013, 8:40 PM UTC

ghuntley wrote: post #344

JayEnn wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

xamarin studio is great to work with. Mono has a c# repl. OTOH if you said c# is practically unusable without resharper, I'd have some sympathy.

Little known fact about Xamarin Studio (MonoDevelop) is that there is a option to enable source analysis which is for some reason off by default. Flipping it on essentially enables resharper mode. Only item missing is auto namespace resolution for references.

Thanks, it's under: Preferences -> Text Editor -> Source Analysis

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#507

Post by seanmcdirmid » Wed, Oct 23, 2013, 8:41 PM UTC

forgottenpaswrd wrote: post #262

So you work for Microsoft and your wife is from a company that is being bought by Microsoft, so everything in your life is Microsoft. That's ok, great, you are totally biased in favor of this company. So you can't understand or respect other people opinions. "hate" is a very strong term for not caring enough, or not caring as much as some family with all members working for the company.

Nokia isn't a part of Microsoft, even if that could happen in the future. My wife was working for Nokia before recent events.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#508

Post by lmm » Wed, Oct 23, 2013, 8:53 PM UTC

graycat wrote: post #482

lmm wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So, I'm eager to leave that work to a vendor that specializes in such things, and for such a vendor all I could see was Microsoft. So, right, it sounds like I want to pay money for my operating system, middle ware, tools, etc., and in a sense that is correct. I.e., if something goes wrong, then I want an 'account executive' to call and ask for help. Novell will sell you SuSE with support if that's what you want. No…

Many thanks. > Modern computers (even desktop/laptop) are much more similar to those workstations than to DOS-era consumer PCs. Absolutely. Current computers are totally unreal, off the tops of the charts, as you noted, well beyond what Sun, SGI, etc. were selling 10-15 years ago. But 10-15 years ago I was using x86 at much lower cost. > There's the customizability side. You say that you're not in the business of too…

I think you will struggle to hire good programmers willing to work in VB.NET. (For myself, I wouldn't take a job in anything short of scala or haskell. These aren't "easy" languages; in fact stereotypically they're "hard", but they allow me to write in a few lines something that would be dozens of repetitions of a pattern in a less powerful language. Programming in something else is boring and repetitive by comparison). You said before you were confident in the microsoft platform because of the large, busy websites using it; are any of those built on VB.NET?

>The challenges in writing significant Web site software are outside the language and in the APIs, e.g., the .NET Framework, ASP.NET, ADO.NET, also in the middle ware, e.g., IIS, SQL Server, and in some issues of system and network management, system security, etc.

Sounds like you think you don't really need much actual programming. Maybe the problem you're solving isn't really a technical one, and that's fine - in which case maybe you'll be fine with mediocre programmers and it would be a waste of money to hire top ones.

Well, best of luck either way.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#509

Post by EdwardDiego » Wed, Oct 23, 2013, 9:14 PM UTC

ern wrote: post #342

EdwardDiego wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was trying to get into the developer game (I'm self-taught with no degree so couldn't follow the normal progression) the biggest market in my hometown was (and still is) for .NET developers. So, I joined a .NET user group, I installed VS, I started learning. Problem was, MS was churning out the "next great thing" faster than I could learn the last great thing. While I was getting my head around WinForms, WPF c…

It was the 'blessed' data layer stuff that threw me. When I started it was DataSets etc. Then it was LINQ-to-SQL, then it was very much not LINQ-to-SQL, but instead was Entity Framework. As a newbie who was trying to make myself marketable, it felt like a bit of a hamster wheel, but then through the user group, I met .NET pros who felt exactly the same way. Most .NET developers learn what they need to know for the pr…

> Are you certain that the general programming knowledge you acquired through "spinning the wheel" wasn't a factor?

I never stopped (and never do stop) learning as much as I could, and I apologise if I gave the impression I was only learning .NET stuff. I was primarily coding in Python, but got into JS to write stealth code to automate a horrendously manual part of my day job in a government contact centre.

To clarify for you on the hire, I was hired for the JS, but expected to learn Java pretty quickly.

> Adaptability is an important skill for developers.

For sure.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#510

Post by MortenK » Wed, Oct 23, 2013, 9:34 PM UTC

alasdair_ wrote: post #452

MortenK wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Monster.com job listings in the US by keyword: .NET - 1000+ positions Java - 1000+ positions PHP - 454 positions Python - 295 positions Ruby - 280 positions Node.js - 55 positions Lisp, Haskell, Scheme - 0 positions

I think this says a lot more about the types of companies that post their job listings on monster.com than the types of jobs that people are being hired for generally. Do tech companies even post on monster?

You mean tech companies like Microsoft, Apple, Google, Nvidia, Intel and IBM? Yes they do have positions listed at Monster. If by tech companies you mean week-over-week growth companies like fart.io and sfnavelgazer.com then no I don't think so. Probably Monster is not serious enough a platform for such companies, who only staff with top-tier talent. Or maybe they just can't afford the listing fees, since their 30k funding ran out.