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Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

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Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#141

Post by einhverfr »

jabits wrote: post #89
nikatwork wrote: post #16

I started my career working on VB apps, and ASP then ASP.NET websites, using a Windows dev box. After learning several OSS stacks, I have nothing but contempt for Microsoft technologies. I wouldn't say I hate MS - they are what they are - but I am certainly conditioned to be very suspicious of their offerings. I would never take a job working on a MS stack again, ever. I currently work for a large enterprise that use…

''The devs love it and it makes me happy.'' Not all devs. Microsoft tools have contributed to a long, successful, and enjoyable career for me, and I have yet to find an IDE as nice as VS (any contemporary version). The MS toolsets have been mostly good to work with, a few warts not withstanding. What OSS tools and IDEs are making your devs so happy, and making their jobs better than say, VS 2012? (serious question)

Sure. And we shouldn't forget that Microsoft was primarily a development tools manufacturer for a long time. They have a long track record in such tools.

> What OSS tools and IDEs are making your devs so happy, and making their jobs better than say, VS 2012?

It depends to a large extent on what people are doing. To be honest, I have become so happy with VIM, BASH, base UNIX utilities, and such that I don't think I am ever likely to achieve the same productivity in an IDE. The thing is that IDE's are a fundamentally different paradigm and they make easy things a bit easier, but I think a text processing paradigm is better for the hard problems.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#142

Post by georgemcbay »

I (speaking for myself, obviously, not anyone else on HN) don't hate Microsoft. I use Windows! Windows 8 in fact!

For context because I'm sure some people (I do think there is an anti-MS bias here on HN, though not as pronounced as OP thinks it is) may think I'm some stereotypical Microsoft-using rube. I grew up in the 80s, programming first on the C64 (BASIC, 6510 Assembler), then Amiga, then various UNIX systems (SunOS, IRIX, AIX, Ultrix, Solaris, later Linux).

I avoided Windows like crazy until Windows 2000 came out because prior to that release the idea of using an OS where one process could crash the system at any time seemed ridiculous (post my Amiga days), and running NT was only for "enterprises" (at that time). But since I first started using Windows 2000, Windows has always been my "primary" OS, partly for gaming reasons, partly for access to commercial software (currently Adobe Lightroom and Photoshop), and partly because I simply actually just like the look and feel of it.

In the meantime I spent quite a number of years doing Win32 software development (though now I'm mostly doing Android/Java and some embedded stuff with Go) and to this day, Visual Studio is still the programming environment by which all others I use are measured and found wanting. There are some pretty decent other ones, but I still miss the absolute power of the VS debugger (against C, C++ and C#) and everytime I find myself doing printf-debugging because the FOSS tool I'm using doesn't have solid debugging support I cry a little inside.

I also still do a lot of Linux-based programming these days, each Windows system I use has half a dozen or more Linux VMs running on them regularly, but I still prefer Windows as an overall primary desktop. It is fast and extremely stable these days (hell, the GPU driver can crash due to Nvidia bugs and Windows will just restart that mofo and keep going, how cool is that?).

All that said, yes, Microsoft hasn't always acted in the best interests of the overall industry (but neither has any other company near their size, and Microsoft has gotten better over the years while some others I won't name have gotten worse, IMO). Also, I still haven't found any good reason to buy a WinRT device. But my overall impression of Microsoft is pretty positive.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#143

Post by jejones3141 »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #112
spamizbad wrote: post #35

I'd like to thank you for offering that "Full Disclosure" - it represents how Microsoft culture has changed over the years (for the better). In earlier times, Microsoft would often encourage its employees to covertly astroturf on its behalf on various internet forums or news groups. This happened on Arstechnica years ago, and involved quite a bit of drama when one of the mods traced the IP of a poster back to Redmond…

I have never heard about astroturfing happening in the company before, and besides, I'm in research. We are allowed to post from our computers at work. I'm sure, given that Microsoft has 100k employees, that there must be a few bad apples in the bunch: you know, statistically speaking, their will be a few mentally unbalanced people doing things that Microsoft might not otherwise approve of.

John Dvorak, quoted on http://worldcadaccess.typepad.com/gizmos/2005/11/2_grassroot...:

"Some years back, Microsoft practiced a lot of dirty tricks using online mavens to go into forums and create Web sites extolling the virtues of Windows over OS/2. They were dubbed the Microsoft Munchkins, and it was obvious who they were and what they were up to. But their numbers and energy (and they way they joined forces with nonaligned dummies who liked to pile on) proved too much for IBM marketers, and Windows won the operating-system war through fifth-column tactics."

Also, googling "Steve Barkto" will turn up interesting information.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#144

Post by beagle3 »

keithwarren wrote: post #69
nikatwork wrote: post #16

I started my career working on VB apps, and ASP then ASP.NET websites, using a Windows dev box. After learning several OSS stacks, I have nothing but contempt for Microsoft technologies. I wouldn't say I hate MS - they are what they are - but I am certainly conditioned to be very suspicious of their offerings. I would never take a job working on a MS stack again, ever. I currently work for a large enterprise that use…

Similar career arc to me but I actually recognize that a company is not a person, it is a collection of people that change. The Microsoft that exists today is far better than that of a decade or two decades ago. Don't let prior experience prevent you from seeing when great stuff is happening.

This kind of argument appears often in threads about companies not being one entity - but it is wrong. An engineer asked by management to implement enthical program parts can either play along (thereby endorsing behavior) or go home.

A member of the legal team cannot decide to NOT extort e.g. Patent fees from e.g. Android handset makers, or allow e.g. BeOS to be installed by licensed vendors that were forbidden to do so.

A company behaves like an individual, sometimes schizophrenic, often psychopathic or sociopathic. But policy, and reponsibility is not, in fact, up to individual employees.

What you say is true of a group of sports fans, not of a company. And having watched Microsoft's stacking of the ISO committees, patent extortion and chilling effects, SCO proxy war, scathing disregard for industry standards etc - I'll say that I think they have earned all the hate they get here, and then some. The fact they they are not doing as much damage these days is mostly thanks to sliding away from the dominant position - but the culture is still one of bullying.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#145

Post by seanmcdirmid »

fleitz wrote: post #65
kudu wrote: post #43

Slightly offtopic but related: can someone explain the difference between HN and Slashdot like I'm five?

HN is the new cool piece of playground equipment, the old cool piece of playground equipment has been overrun by losers and is now lame. Eventually HN will become /. or reddit and we'll move on. It's essentially nerd fashion.

This comment made my day.

It is all about your community and once it becomes too biased one way or the other, everyone else moves on.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#146

Post by seanmcdirmid »

jejones3141 wrote: post #143
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never heard about astroturfing happening in the company before, and besides, I'm in research. We are allowed to post from our computers at work. I'm sure, given that Microsoft has 100k employees, that there must be a few bad apples in the bunch: you know, statistically speaking, their will be a few mentally unbalanced people doing things that Microsoft might not otherwise approve of.

John Dvorak, quoted on http://worldcadaccess.typepad.com/gizmos/2005/11/2_grassroot... : "Some years back, Microsoft practiced a lot of dirty tricks using online mavens to go into forums and create Web sites extolling the virtues of Windows over OS/2. They were dubbed the Microsoft Munchkins, and it was obvious who they were and what they were up to. But their numbers and energy (and they way they joined forces with…

I wouldn't know. Back then I was working for IBM on OS/2 in Boca Raton, in, as I was told, the very office space that Microsoft vacated a few years earlier when the NT/OS/2 collaboration broke down.

But if I had to choose between IBM and Microsoft, I think Microsoft wins as the more ethical company. IBM seemed like a very shady place to work business practice wise. And no one is talking about IBM these days on HN, unless they happen to do something like Watson occasionally.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#147

Post by nikatwork »

300bps wrote: post #139
nikatwork wrote: post #16

I started my career working on VB apps, and ASP then ASP.NET websites, using a Windows dev box. After learning several OSS stacks, I have nothing but contempt for Microsoft technologies. I wouldn't say I hate MS - they are what they are - but I am certainly conditioned to be very suspicious of their offerings. I would never take a job working on a MS stack again, ever. I currently work for a large enterprise that use…

With all due respect you're just another OSS evangelist comparing RoR to Visual Basic, Classic ASP and ASP.NET. It is a silly comparison but it is so unbelievably common here. Try comparing it to ASP.NET MVC and you'll see that Microsoft actually has a modern and compelling offering. They really haven't sit still since you've been gone.

The funny thing is I never mentioned RoR in my GP, so you inserted that comparison in your own head. I'm talking about a complete OSS ecosystem - dev language, servers, VC, deployment tools, monitoring etc. I work at enterprise scale in FIRE, and there is so much more to successful project delivery than just language/IDE.

BTW I had to bandage up a limping ASP.NET MVC app about three years ago for a large Canadian telco. Nothing I saw under the hood changed my mind about MS.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#148

Post by nonchalance »

I suspect that most people here who hate Microsoft still use products like Excel (for which there is no good competitor :) And maybe that's part of the reason for the hate: for all the problems, there are a few indispensable products that keep us coming back to windows and office and other Microsoft products.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#149

Post by mixmastamyk »

mikeash wrote: post #74
quaffapint wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why such crazy love for Apple when Jobs was trying to do the same thing with the iphone suing companies left and right and patenting a button? They both have bad sides, it just seems one is ignored.

Apple never did anything remotely comparable to MS's rampage of destruction in the 90s. A few lawsuits against smartphone makers is small potatoes by comparison, especially since they didn't really work out. How many competitors has Apple put out of business, not by having better products, but by simply leveraging a monopoly to drive them out? The answer, of course, is none, because they don't have any monopolies and…

shakes fist at Win98

Never forget.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#150

Post by [deleted] »

einhverfr wrote: post #130

I don't hate Microsoft (I used to work at Microsoft Product Support Services). At the same time, I think after watching Microsoft try to break into the consumer smartphone market for the last 14 years, I think there is a point when one wonders if they should just give up. The only people I know using Microsoft phones and tablets are Microsoft employees.

[deleted]
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