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Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

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Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#271

Post by a1a »

pg wrote: post #81
iamshs wrote: post #40

In that particular thread, I was accused of being a shill and an astroturfer by 3 members. All of the accusers had karma greater than 1500, and atleast two of them were on HN since at least 2 years. Why? Because I posted the spec list of the tablet. And I do not have allegiance to any of the tech companies at all, except having used their products one time or another. MS hate is vicious on here. I remember recoiledsn…

That article was not flagged off the frontpage. It set off the flamewar detector. As for recoiledsnake, that is one of many accounts created by a group or individual who is either an astroturfer or indistinguishable from one. Part of his/her/their m.o. is to talk constantly about there being an anti-Microsoft conspiracy on HN. Sometimes he/she/they would use multiple, separate accounts in the same thread.

Flamewar detector sounds like a bad solution IMO. Why not warning/banning system to handle comments? As long as the argument is factual, without fallacies (and not subject to Poe's law), I would be glad if we could keep the discussions open even if people have radically different views.

If you indeed insist on closing the comments on flamewar detection - good courtesy suggests keeping the comments open for public review.

As for the conspiracy folk, why not make a multiple account detector and ban such folk?

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#272

Post by microtonal »

fetbaffe wrote: post #232
CrankyPants wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WebKit? ALAC? On top of that, Apple's done more than any other single player (except perhaps Adobe!) to move the industry away from Flash, to open alternatives. No, they don't always follow standards or always have open implementations, but their garden is arguably quite a bit less walled than the one in Redmond. Which makes your point a little confusing, at best. Also related: http://www.apple.com/opensource/

Webkit was already open source before Apple started using it. ALAC was closed source until 2011. Microsoft has released open formats as well, like XPS. And Microsoft does open source today as well. That's how the industry works today. Sure flash is bad thing but if Sun had its way with the internet and Microsoft had not stopped them we be all doing Java applets by now. However that's all beside the point, the point i…

Webkit was already open source before Apple started using it.

Apple created Webkit. They were using/forked KHTML for that, but it quickly diverged.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#273

Post by eksith »

jlgreco wrote: post #205
sillysaurus2 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes he/she/they would use multiple, separate accounts in the same thread. Is it possible they post from work, and hence share the same IP address with other HN posters? Microsoft is a big place.

This is PG. If he doesn't think it is just a bunch of well-meaning commenters coincidentally behind the same NAT, then I am inclined to believe him. Anyway, do you know what I do when there are discussions online about my employer? I stay the fuck out of it. I think that is good policy, unless participating in those discussions is part of your job description. Best case scenario here: a bunch of well-meaning Microsof…

  Anyway, do you know what I do when there are discussions online about my employer? 
  I stay the fuck out of it.
This is an excellent policy. Employee participation (unless they're CEO/Founder, CTO or some combination thereof that can speak with authority) will almost invariably lead to problems. It's good that some employees feel "passionate" and "enthusiastic" about their company/product, but if that's left unchecked and they refuse to remain objective, it will not prevent the thread from going up in a passionate and enthusiastic fire ball.

Same applies to social media.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#274

Post by bad_user »

redthrowaway wrote: post #250
pg wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That article was not flagged off the frontpage. It set off the flamewar detector. As for recoiledsnake, that is one of many accounts created by a group or individual who is either an astroturfer or indistinguishable from one. Part of his/her/their m.o. is to talk constantly about there being an anti-Microsoft conspiracy on HN. Sometimes he/she/they would use multiple, separate accounts in the same thread.

Speaking of the flamewar detector, I'm curious: what's the balance to be struck between discouraging flamewars (or encouraging civility) and discouraging groupthink? If certain topics are in effect verboten due to the types of discussions they tend to breed, does that not induce a sort of hivemind effect that reinforces prevailing views? For example, if articles on Microsoft tend to get driven off the front page, whi…

People that think this community is pro-Apple should stick around some more. This is the only place were I'm constantly seeing Apple (and Google) badmouthed with good arguments. Personally I hate Apple's products and most of my anti-Apple rhetoric received up-votes.

I've seen plenty of Microsoft related stories, but if Microsoft tends to be driven off the front page, maybe it's because Microsoft is totally uninteresting and some Microsoft proponents behave like shills, especially because they bitch and moan about the lack of interest in Microsoft, as if it's some kind of conspiracy or as if it's our duty to have an interest in Microsoft.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#275

Post by anigbrowl »

rmrfrmrf wrote: post #170
lessnonymous wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the article might be useful to people building businesses in the tech space, but because some users decided to air their petty grievances in the _comments_ to that story, the story itself got buried? Seems like the flamewar detector would be better aimed at closing comments rather than burying stories.

I like the flamewar detector removing the whole story. As PG has said in the past, flamewars aren't interesting and they do nothing but divide the community. Keeping the story on just causes more drama because the users with comments deleted end up replying asking where their comments went and then start crying about anti-Americanism and the right to comment on a private website ad infinitum. It's pointless.

But this is a very weak approach, as it makes it extremely easy for bad actors to 'poison the well.' If there's something you don't like, use a sockpuppet account or two to get a flamewar going, thread gets nuked from orbit, and the people who wanted to discuss it in good faith are marginalized.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#276

Post by nekopa »

hrjet wrote: post #193
gbog wrote: post #113

> Is it ethical to flag something because the article is related to a company you don't like I do not think the important topic of Ethics should be brought so low as to help us decide on whether to flag or not a link on HN. Let's replace it by "stupid". Then yes, it is stupid to flag a post just because it relates to a company we do not like. However, it is not stupid to dislike Microsoft. You might remember Paul Gra…

Another reason for being wary of Microsoft: Their OSes and applications have an auto-run policy (run stuff automatically when a CD is inserted, or scripts in Excel, etc). It is clearly a way to allow viruses into the system, and then make some money from updates and anti-viruses!

Maybe my sarcasm detector if off, but aren't windows updates and Microsoft Security Essentials (a pretty good AV from what I hear, I wouldn't know as I run Linux) completely free?

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#277

Post by jmodp »

FallDead wrote: post #33

I hate Microsoft because I would say that they probably do not utilize you to your full extent or that they must shelve alot of your projects, Microsoft does not appear to be innovating and or utilizing R and D properly, the next thing is just half assing everything they have built. If they could build things like how they built visio my god that company would be in a good place in my mind. Another reason I hate Micr…

Actually, when it comes to Microsoft Research, Microsoft does it the right way. Although it is considered a good thing for research projects to be incorporated into products, many projects are free to take a longer view and contribute to base knowledge that benefits all. Kind of the way Xerox Park worked in the days of old.

Why should everything be Unix based? Aren't alternatives and competing ideas a good thing? Adoption of open standards isn't enough. Just look at Google's tactics with Android as described in the recent Ars article or Apple's control over iOS. In many ways classic Windows (and MacOS) were/are more open than either of those systems. It's too bad that Microsoft is being forced (by the market)to follow that model. In the end companies will do what they feel is in their own interest limited only by government regulation. That's the capitalist way. Enlightened self interest will result in benefits for all that are worth the cost of creative destruction. No need to hate on any company. The market and the system will self correct.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#278

Post by epsylon »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #224
donretag wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple maintains many of the same positions, yet they are loved. Apple actually uses a lot of open source, yet rarely contribute back. Microsoft Research contributes a ton to computing research. Note: writing this in Google Chrome on my Macbook

These days, Apple is probably more hated than Microsoft. Not as much as MS was back in the day, but more than modern, sheepish-looking Microsoft. I gotta say it weirds me out when people assert that everyone loves Apple, because it happens a lot; almost as often as people go on vitriolic rants against everything Apple-related.

> These days, Apple is probably more hated than Microsoft.

Perhaps, but the HN sample population is still biased favorably towards Apple.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#279

Post by xgarland »

bad_user wrote: post #274
redthrowaway wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking of the flamewar detector, I'm curious: what's the balance to be struck between discouraging flamewars (or encouraging civility) and discouraging groupthink? If certain topics are in effect verboten due to the types of discussions they tend to breed, does that not induce a sort of hivemind effect that reinforces prevailing views? For example, if articles on Microsoft tend to get driven off the front page, whi…

People that think this community is pro-Apple should stick around some more. This is the only place were I'm constantly seeing Apple (and Google) badmouthed with good arguments. Personally I hate Apple's products and most of my anti-Apple rhetoric received up-votes. I've seen plenty of Microsoft related stories, but if Microsoft tends to be driven off the front page, maybe it's because Microsoft is totally uninterest…

Agreed. The cry for attention from the Microsoft community is becoming a bit annoying, especially on HN.

Re: Ask HN: Why the Microsoft hate?

#280

Post by [deleted] »

iamshs wrote: post #40

In that particular thread, I was accused of being a shill and an astroturfer by 3 members. All of the accusers had karma greater than 1500, and atleast two of them were on HN since at least 2 years. Why? Because I posted the spec list of the tablet. And I do not have allegiance to any of the tech companies at all, except having used their products one time or another. MS hate is vicious on here. I remember recoiledsn…

[deleted]
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