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Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

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Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#261

Post by toomuchtodo »

kotlin2 wrote: post #237
bodge5000 wrote: post #118

With all due respect, this is mostly my problem with the "work-from-office" (WFO for ease) crowd. Generally, the stance of the WFH crowd is that each individual should get a choice of what makes that individual happy. Very few, if any, of the WFH crowd want mandatated WFH, it would make no sense. But then the WFO crowd often says no, I don't care what makes you happy, because you being in makes me happy. That doesn't…

WFO isn't necessarily about personal preference. People who want everyone to WFO believe that WFO produces better outcomes for the company. That is different than someone who desires to work from an office or remotely out of personal preference. For instance, I may prefer to WFH because it makes my life more convenient, but I can also accept that WFO produces better outcomes for the company. Personally, I haven't see…

> Personally, I haven't seen many good arguments that WFH produces superior work outcomes.

https://www.apollotechnical.com/working-from-home-productivi...

https://resources.owllabs.com/hubfs/SORW/SORW_2021/owl-labs_...

> Several studies over the past few months show productivity while working remotely from home is better than working in an office setting. On average, those who work from home spend 10 minutes less a day being unproductive, work one more day a week, and are 47% more productive.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#262

Post by bearmode »

BaseballPhysics wrote: post #180
bodge5000 wrote: post #118

With all due respect, this is mostly my problem with the "work-from-office" (WFO for ease) crowd. Generally, the stance of the WFH crowd is that each individual should get a choice of what makes that individual happy. Very few, if any, of the WFH crowd want mandatated WFH, it would make no sense. But then the WFO crowd often says no, I don't care what makes you happy, because you being in makes me happy. That doesn't…

I'd also add that comments like this: > Now, I am fully aware that there's a low of people for whom the horror of commute doesn't make up for the gains of socializing and others that just abhor having to talk to real-life people. Then there are people who work mainly to get paid and do not care to invest themselves beyond what is necessary. Are remarkably condescending. Folks opting for a better work-life balance, wh…

I worked out that for me, even accounting for energy bills and such, working from home full time would be equivalent to a 15% pay rise. And on top of that, I'd have 2 hours of extra free time every day. I can't understand the kind of person who wouldn't want that.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#263

Post by _ea1k »

adamhp wrote: post #87
munchausen42 wrote: post #73

If you wonder why an argument might be controversial, it can helpful to imagine how it would sound like in mirror world: Assume for a moment that working remotly and a flexible workday would have been always the default. And now some companies decide: Hey let's contractually enforce a 9 hour continuous workday where all our workers will be locked in a big ugly building that we build just for that purpose (Btw. at lea…

Disclaimer: I support fully remote work and will likely never be returning to office in my lifetime if I can help it. Here I play devil's advocate. Even though it is a hypothetical world you've constructed, you still framed it from the perspective of this world. I can do the same thing you did with a different bias. Imagine a world where everyone is socially isolated, forced to work 8 hours a day from their living sp…

If remote work was all 8 hours a day with 15 minute checks, you'd be right. But that happens in offices too, so it isn't the key difference.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#264

Post by bogota »

kotlin2 wrote: post #237
bodge5000 wrote: post #118

With all due respect, this is mostly my problem with the "work-from-office" (WFO for ease) crowd. Generally, the stance of the WFH crowd is that each individual should get a choice of what makes that individual happy. Very few, if any, of the WFH crowd want mandatated WFH, it would make no sense. But then the WFO crowd often says no, I don't care what makes you happy, because you being in makes me happy. That doesn't…

WFO isn't necessarily about personal preference. People who want everyone to WFO believe that WFO produces better outcomes for the company. That is different than someone who desires to work from an office or remotely out of personal preference. For instance, I may prefer to WFH because it makes my life more convenient, but I can also accept that WFO produces better outcomes for the company. Personally, I haven't see…

Trying to map BLS productivity data to WFH performance in the current economy and environment is absolutely crazy

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#265

Post by throwaway294566 »

jcpst wrote: post #207
andsoitis wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For twice a month you could probably Uber / rent a car and expense it, no?

Every time I’ve traveled for work, they do not expense the portion where you leave from your home. It’s up to you to get to work. So if you drive, you “leave from the office” (i.e. calc the distance from there), or drive to the airport, and getting from home to the airport is on you. Curious to hear if this is different for others.

I've worked for a government entity in Germany where this was regulated as follows. I think most of the private companies do it similarly as a baseline and are more generous as an optional perk:

When you are doing "real" work from home (in bureaucrat-German: "Telearbeit"), your regular workplace is at your home. You need a separate, lockable room, the room needs to be inspected by the employer's safety advisor and data protection officer, equipment such as chair and desk as well the room and electricity are paid by the employer. Safety and health regulations apply in your home same as for the company office, e.g. lighting has to have appropriate brightness, no storing dangerous chemicals like toilet cleaner in the bathroom, etc. Since your office is at home, public holidays (which are location-dependent in Germany), taxes and regulations of your home apply to you. If you travel to the office, it is reimbursed as regular business travel ("Dienstgang"). Any other business travel is reimbursed as having started from your actual starting location (e.g. your girlfriend's) or your home, whichever is cheaper for the employer. But since all this is incredibly onerous and expensive, nobody does "Telearbeit".

The alternative, which everyone uses, is "mobile work" (bureaucrat-German: "mobiles Arbeiten"). That was actually intended as a regulation for e.g. salesmen traveling from customer to customer, only sometimes working from the office. Here, your regular workplace is in the office, meaning that traveling between your home and the office is never reimbursed. Rules, holidays, etc. apply as if you were in the office, even if you are working from somewhere else, e.g. a customer's or your home. Since things are thought to be "mobile" and "random", workplace safety regulations do apply but do not need to be inspected. The employee is responsible for observing them at their current work location (i.e. usually not at all caring about all that crap). If you do "mobile work" from your home, you pay for your own chair, desk and power.

When HR writes emails about WFH and you do pay attention, you will notice that they are carefully avoiding the term "Telearbeit" and maybe even "home office" and phrase everything in terms of "mobile work" (which is optionally 100% from your home) ;)

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#266

Post by humanrebar »

voisin wrote: post #210
cmiles74 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion, it's the employers that are pushing us to view these as two opposing extremes. I suspect this is because for so long (as long as I can remember) they've had all of the power and control. Clearly something more personal is the best solution, there's likely also an age component here as well. I know that with a child it's much more convenient to be at home most of the time. Now that employers have given…

> I suspect this is because for so long (as long as I can remember) they've had all of the power and control. We are heading into a recession (if not there already). As the strong labour market deteriorates, this power imbalance will shift back to managers.

I'm not sure the specific labor markets we are talking about will deteriorate substantially.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#267

Post by mufty »

UnpossibleJim wrote: post #243
BaseballPhysics wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd also add that comments like this: > Now, I am fully aware that there's a low of people for whom the horror of commute doesn't make up for the gains of socializing and others that just abhor having to talk to real-life people. Then there are people who work mainly to get paid and do not care to invest themselves beyond what is necessary. Are remarkably condescending. Folks opting for a better work-life balance, wh…

Not to hop on the train of criticism, but there are plenty of other ways to invest yourself in your career other than being a social butterfly around the coffee pot. Admittedly I'm a bit socially awkward and fully aware of my flaws, but that's part of the reason I enjoy terminal work in the first place. Commits and Slack are about as social as I was in the office, anyway and when I was social, people wished I would k…

The most relatable comment I’ve read so far

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#268

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 »

bodge5000 wrote: post #118

With all due respect, this is mostly my problem with the "work-from-office" (WFO for ease) crowd. Generally, the stance of the WFH crowd is that each individual should get a choice of what makes that individual happy. Very few, if any, of the WFH crowd want mandatated WFH, it would make no sense. But then the WFO crowd often says no, I don't care what makes you happy, because you being in makes me happy. That doesn't…

If everyone else works remote then what is the point of going to the office?

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#269

Post by marceloabsousa »

asdadsdad wrote: post #254

Oh my - I've been waiting to hear this since forever, and you couldn't have said it better. I feel exactly the same way, and I feel like specially the younger tech workers are losing a big chunk of what it means to build work relationships (which are some of the best), and to connect with people. I don't know how to fix it as like you said, most people will scream when you mention work from office/

Second this. After working fully remote for 2+ years and now back to the office, for me it's really great to have an office.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#270

Post by vidarh »

With a typical London commute, and typical cost of it, my attitude while looking for a job lately - as I'm leaving my current one by end of the year (see my profile...) -, has been that if you want me in the office it will cost you 25% more.

My current salary accounts for competition from elsewhere. Could it be higher with no remote working? Yes. Might it be an issue for people in junior positions? Possibly.

For me, this is not hacking away at a well-paid branch because I've been in situations where we've had outsourced teams in low paid countries and my employer still opted to pay as much for me - 100% remote - as for a team of five in a lower paid country, and being close enough for the occasional in person meeting also serves as a barrier to outsource more.

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