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Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

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Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#241

Post by jwcacces »

BaseballPhysics wrote: post #180
bodge5000 wrote: post #118

With all due respect, this is mostly my problem with the "work-from-office" (WFO for ease) crowd. Generally, the stance of the WFH crowd is that each individual should get a choice of what makes that individual happy. Very few, if any, of the WFH crowd want mandatated WFH, it would make no sense. But then the WFO crowd often says no, I don't care what makes you happy, because you being in makes me happy. That doesn't…

I'd also add that comments like this: > Now, I am fully aware that there's a low of people for whom the horror of commute doesn't make up for the gains of socializing and others that just abhor having to talk to real-life people. Then there are people who work mainly to get paid and do not care to invest themselves beyond what is necessary. Are remarkably condescending. Folks opting for a better work-life balance, wh…

To give an alternative opinion, as someone who has come to see a commute as a complete waste of my time, and also as someone who has spent a long time contemplating the nature of my relationship to work in general, I did not feel condescended by the that post.

I saw each those descriptors separately, able to appeal to those they resonated with. And honestly, the characterization of "working to get paid and not investing beyond what is necessary" is not a deprecation of me, my attitude, or the balance I've struck.

I can understand if that specific sentiment does not resonate with you, but for me, I've come to feel accepting and happy with the ideas that: my work is purely in exchange for money, it is not my identity, and that once I've put my part in, I want to use my time and energy towards the other things that make me happy.

I'm not saying I don't get great joy and satisfaction out of my hard work and coworker relationships, I really do. For me, that comes with: "This is my task, and when I've satisfied it, that's all I'm interested in doing". However what really brought peace to my mind was incorporating: "And that's OK." into my outlook. "I do not care to invest myself beyond that" is not a characterization I feel the need to be ashamed of. Perhaps it's hubris on my part, but I'm proud of the push back that I feel entitled to give, and I'm proud to say "this is the limit of my investment in work".

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#242

Post by ironmagma »

The problem with RTO is that it is generally a crank that turns one way. Once WFH is gone, it’s gone and there’s no likelihood of getting it back. I’d rather have freedom and be confined indefinitely to a Zoom call than the alternative.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#243

Post by UnpossibleJim »

BaseballPhysics wrote: post #180
bodge5000 wrote: post #118

With all due respect, this is mostly my problem with the "work-from-office" (WFO for ease) crowd. Generally, the stance of the WFH crowd is that each individual should get a choice of what makes that individual happy. Very few, if any, of the WFH crowd want mandatated WFH, it would make no sense. But then the WFO crowd often says no, I don't care what makes you happy, because you being in makes me happy. That doesn't…

I'd also add that comments like this: > Now, I am fully aware that there's a low of people for whom the horror of commute doesn't make up for the gains of socializing and others that just abhor having to talk to real-life people. Then there are people who work mainly to get paid and do not care to invest themselves beyond what is necessary. Are remarkably condescending. Folks opting for a better work-life balance, wh…

Not to hop on the train of criticism, but there are plenty of other ways to invest yourself in your career other than being a social butterfly around the coffee pot. Admittedly I'm a bit socially awkward and fully aware of my flaws, but that's part of the reason I enjoy terminal work in the first place. Commits and Slack are about as social as I was in the office, anyway and when I was social, people wished I would keep it to commits and Slack =P

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#245

Post by CoastalCoder »

BaseballPhysics wrote: post #180
bodge5000 wrote: post #118

With all due respect, this is mostly my problem with the "work-from-office" (WFO for ease) crowd. Generally, the stance of the WFH crowd is that each individual should get a choice of what makes that individual happy. Very few, if any, of the WFH crowd want mandatated WFH, it would make no sense. But then the WFO crowd often says no, I don't care what makes you happy, because you being in makes me happy. That doesn't…

I'd also add that comments like this: > Now, I am fully aware that there's a low of people for whom the horror of commute doesn't make up for the gains of socializing and others that just abhor having to talk to real-life people. Then there are people who work mainly to get paid and do not care to invest themselves beyond what is necessary. Are remarkably condescending. Folks opting for a better work-life balance, wh…

I don't think it's fair to chastise the author about this.

His entire question was basically, "Am I looking at this situation differently than most people?".

We couldn't really answer his question without knowing his true feelings.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#246

Post by ianai »

kotlin2 wrote: post #237
bodge5000 wrote: post #118

With all due respect, this is mostly my problem with the "work-from-office" (WFO for ease) crowd. Generally, the stance of the WFH crowd is that each individual should get a choice of what makes that individual happy. Very few, if any, of the WFH crowd want mandatated WFH, it would make no sense. But then the WFO crowd often says no, I don't care what makes you happy, because you being in makes me happy. That doesn't…

WFO isn't necessarily about personal preference. People who want everyone to WFO believe that WFO produces better outcomes for the company. That is different than someone who desires to work from an office or remotely out of personal preference. For instance, I may prefer to WFH because it makes my life more convenient, but I can also accept that WFO produces better outcomes for the company. Personally, I haven't see…

If you want WFH to value-add to your position then it’s on you to make it happen.

Where I am, the WFHers have ruined a lot of morale and contributed to around half the team leaving.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#247

Post by [deleted] »

bodge5000 wrote: post #118

With all due respect, this is mostly my problem with the "work-from-office" (WFO for ease) crowd. Generally, the stance of the WFH crowd is that each individual should get a choice of what makes that individual happy. Very few, if any, of the WFH crowd want mandatated WFH, it would make no sense. But then the WFO crowd often says no, I don't care what makes you happy, because you being in makes me happy. That doesn't…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#248

Post by agentultra »

You're not missing anything. People need and want different things.

I hate commuting. It's wasteful and pointless.

I have many sensitivities that are difficult to manage in a busy environment. Managing them is distracting and cuts down the amount of productive time I can use in a day. When I'm at home or in a small office I get more done and feel less stressed out at the end of the day.

I don't spend as much time and effort making social connections through work as other people do. I'm past the point in my life where I need to make connections and instead prefer to focus on those I have and matter most to me: my children, my partner, my life-long friends and neighbours and my extended family.

Not commuting means I don't have to be exhausted and lose hours of my life each day waiting to get somewhere else.

Not being in an office means I don't have to wear noise-cancelling headphones, feel the stress of sitting under florescent lights, and all of the chaos from all of the scents. I can be in an environment that is conducive to me and feel "normal."

Not being in an office means I can work in my yard, surrounded by my garden, and listen to the birds. I can take a break and read a book with my cat. I can go for a walk to my local cafe and hear the latest gossip from the barista. I can drop my kids off at school in the morning. I don't have to own a gas-powered vehicle. I can just live where I am and not be pressured to be anywhere. That's a very nice thing to have and it has made my life 1000x better.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#249

Post by krageon »

kotlin2 wrote: post #237
bodge5000 wrote: post #118

With all due respect, this is mostly my problem with the "work-from-office" (WFO for ease) crowd. Generally, the stance of the WFH crowd is that each individual should get a choice of what makes that individual happy. Very few, if any, of the WFH crowd want mandatated WFH, it would make no sense. But then the WFO crowd often says no, I don't care what makes you happy, because you being in makes me happy. That doesn't…

WFO isn't necessarily about personal preference. People who want everyone to WFO believe that WFO produces better outcomes for the company. That is different than someone who desires to work from an office or remotely out of personal preference. For instance, I may prefer to WFH because it makes my life more convenient, but I can also accept that WFO produces better outcomes for the company. Personally, I haven't see…

WFO is shit and delivers measurably lower work. That is what I have seen. It is not useful to say these things because everyone works in a different environment. You are essentially saying "what you say works best for you doesn't work for me, so it must be what I want because I believe my way is better". It is attitudes like this that make offices the absolute hellscape that they are, with everyone constantly interrupting you because of what they want or need. There is no space for what the victim in that situation wants, any attitude that thinks that is in any way okay is fundamentally toxic.

Re: Ask HN: Why don't I see gold at the end of the remote working rainbow?

#250

Post by janetacarr »

You're conflating not wanting to be in an office with being mediocre at their job, and that's simply not true. Some of the best developers I've met were remote long before COVID, and I'm certain it's because they were so good at what they did, they could just command such a work benefit.

Now that such a benefit is widespread, the majority of people get to design their own lifestyle for the first time ever, and they really enjoy it, instead of designing their lives around the needs of their employer (or your needs). It's not just commuting, it's moving closer to the office; its time away from family; it's cost saving conveniences because they're short on time; it's expensive lunches when they forget their brown bag; and feeling obligated to hang out with people they really just have a business relationship with (and maybe one they don't want). And yes, a lot of people's mission in life is their family, but that doesn't make them 'less than' you.

Remote workers aren't enough to outsource, outsourcing is not a new thing, it's been around for a very long time. There are a number of reasons why a company might not outsource such as tax incentives, cultural clashes, work style clashes, and logistical challenges.

I would encourage you to do some introspection as to why you think you need the office in the first place. Why do you need the social aspect of it? is something missing from your outside-of-work social life? Design your life around your own needs. Co-working spaces are still a thing, and I even go to them sometimes.

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