Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#151

Post by BeetleB » Wed, May 12, 2021, 5:19 AM UTC

ineptech wrote: post #61

I manage people and have some advice. Start with, "I'd like to be converted to full remote, what's the process for that?" The answer is probably "I don't know but I don't think it would fly." Insist that your manager ask up the chain for an official answer. If the answer is "nope", next say: "I'm not comfortable returning to the office for health reasons. Will I be fired?" This is two-pronged: a) it introduces privat…

If your health really is your concern, go for it. Otherwise, deception during negotiation in a scenario where you have to maintain working relationships is playing with fire.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#152

Post by js8 » Wed, May 12, 2021, 5:22 AM UTC

29athrowaway wrote: post #148

If I was your manager, the questions I would ask are: - Do you have a designated space that is adequate and safe for work? - Do you have an ergonomic setup including an ergonomic chair and desk? - Do you have reliable / high speed internet connectivity? - Do you have a proper microphone setup? (and camera if required)? - Will you commit to be responsive via instant messaging or another communication solution during o…

Also don't forget to ask them if they have a functioning toilet at home. /s

These questions are extremely patronizing.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#153

Post by cooperaustinj » Wed, May 12, 2021, 5:26 AM UTC

29athrowaway wrote: post #148

If I was your manager, the questions I would ask are: - Do you have a designated space that is adequate and safe for work? - Do you have an ergonomic setup including an ergonomic chair and desk? - Do you have reliable / high speed internet connectivity? - Do you have a proper microphone setup? (and camera if required)? - Will you commit to be responsive via instant messaging or another communication solution during o…

Where's this manager been for the last year? All of these potential issues will have been resolved or found to be non-issues after a year of wfh.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#154

Post by 29athrowaway » Wed, May 12, 2021, 5:37 AM UTC

js8 wrote: post #152

29athrowaway wrote: post #148

If I was your manager, the questions I would ask are: - Do you have a designated space that is adequate and safe for work? - Do you have an ergonomic setup including an ergonomic chair and desk? - Do you have reliable / high speed internet connectivity? - Do you have a proper microphone setup? (and camera if required)? - Will you commit to be responsive via instant messaging or another communication solution during o…

Also don't forget to ask them if they have a functioning toilet at home. /s These questions are extremely patronizing.

It's a checklist.

First, it makes it clear that the stuff in the list becomes your own responsibility when you WFH.

Second, the annoyance of a one-time routine checklist you can cover in 3 minutes is infinitely better than any of those things going wrong.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#155

Post by u801e » Wed, May 12, 2021, 5:53 AM UTC

rizpanjwani wrote: post #25

Playing devil's advocate: as a business/employer why would I continue to pay you your current first-world salary rather than find someone top-notch for 1/3 your salary in India, or any other English speaking country with a lower cost of living?

> as a business/employer why would I continue to pay you your current first-world salary rather than find someone top-notch for 1/3 your salary in India, or any other English speaking country with a lower cost of living?

The company I work has hired a lot of personnel based in India over the last several years. While some of the hires are reasonably competent, many of them need a lot of hand holding to get through tasks that most locally hired people would not.

In other words, they don't seem to be getting up to speed in a reasonable period of time based on past experience hiring new university graduates with no prior professional experience. That, in turn, increases costs because they're not accomplishing nearly as much in the time alloted.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#156

Post by samcheng » Wed, May 12, 2021, 5:53 AM UTC

For what it's worth, I've recently been interviewing candidates who straight-up resigned from their previous employer after facing a "return to work" ultimatum. You can too!

I'd like to add that there is a big difference between "most of the company is in-office with some remote workers" and "company is fully distributed including leadership" - with the former, it's not necessarily a positive work environment being the remote person when everyone else is talking to each other in the conference room (or in the hallway).

In other words, even if you do negotiate an exception to your employer's return-to-office policy, it's likely not a good career move.

There are plenty of companies out there who have transitioned to remote-first, and the technical skill-set is still highly prized. Take advantage!

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#157

Post by ineptech » Wed, May 12, 2021, 5:56 AM UTC

Permit wrote: post #102

ineptech wrote: post #61

I manage people and have some advice. Start with, "I'd like to be converted to full remote, what's the process for that?" The answer is probably "I don't know but I don't think it would fly." Insist that your manager ask up the chain for an official answer. If the answer is "nope", next say: "I'm not comfortable returning to the office for health reasons. Will I be fired?" This is two-pronged: a) it introduces privat…

> a) it introduces private healthcare decisions, a legally fraught topic they do not want to deal with. Weaponizing (perhaps too aggressive a word) private health decisions feels weird to me. The OP didn't mention any health concerns, so I'm assuming you're suggesting he just hide behind fictitious ones? Your advice is probably useful and could potentially get him what he desires, but it still feels off to me. It fee…

> I'm assuming you're suggesting he just hide behind fictitious ones?

I don't think "I'm not comfortable returning to the office for health reasons" implies any medical condition beyond being afraid to get covid. Which ought to be reason enough, if there's no particular downside to allowing OP to continue working remotely. And if there is a downside, it'd be good if OP and their employer discussed it.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#158

Post by todd3834 » Wed, May 12, 2021, 6:02 AM UTC

u801e wrote: post #155

rizpanjwani wrote: post #25

Playing devil's advocate: as a business/employer why would I continue to pay you your current first-world salary rather than find someone top-notch for 1/3 your salary in India, or any other English speaking country with a lower cost of living?

> as a business/employer why would I continue to pay you your current first-world salary rather than find someone top-notch for 1/3 your salary in India, or any other English speaking country with a lower cost of living? The company I work has hired a lot of personnel based in India over the last several years. While some of the hires are reasonably competent, many of them need a lot of hand holding to get through ta…

In my prior experience there just isn’t much of a discount to be had when you find people of the same caliber regardless of where they live. Someone who performs at the same level as someone local, and there are plenty of them, has usually figured out what people are willing to pay for their services.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#159

Post by MrGilbert » Wed, May 12, 2021, 6:02 AM UTC

I'm in the same boat. Our CEO was an extreme opponent to wfh before the pandemic. You could get wfh on a day-to-day base, but only if you could provide good reasons for that. During the pandemic, we all proved that wfh works. Hell, some of my coworkers and I opened up a discord, were we are more or less in voice chat the whole time. It's like working in the office, but without many of the downsides.

Being challenged, CEO decided to give everyone 12 wfh days per year. After asking why exactly "12", he argued that this were the average days people requested in the last 2 years before pandemic. That's just ridiculous.

Yet, I'm still at the company, because I don't think that now is a good time to look for a new job without substantial savings. But alea iacta est, I guess.

Also, it doesn't make sense to negotiate in private, even if I managed to get something negotiated: We are working in a team, and the team needs to be able to handle somebody who is working remotely. It's pretty hard to not let people behind if you aren't trained at wfh.

Re: Ask HN: How to negotiate continuing to work remotely?

#160

Post by todd3834 » Wed, May 12, 2021, 6:07 AM UTC

jimbob45 wrote: post #81

nzmsv wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To play devil's advocate to your devil's advocate: why haven't you been doing this already for the past 5 years?

Because you get what you pay for in India.

You get what you pay for everywhere. You can definitely find high quality talent in India but it isn’t going to come at the “outsource to India” price people who have never done it think it will. Great talent is expensive regardless of where it is because the global market determines it more than the locale.

That being said, I expect some discount to come with the challenge of differing time zones. Also depending on which country you are working with, speaking fluently and clearly is a huge factor too. India and the US have a vast range of low to extremely high talented people with varying communication skills. You get what you pay for (not an India thing)