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Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

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Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>My reaction would be to just fire both. What did the existing employee do to deserve such treatment?

Maybe the OP hasn't shared all information but if asking someone out and/or complimenting someone's appearance (albeit crudely) is now the equivalent of sexual harassment then be prepared for a rapid decline in population since no one will want to be the first one to make a move.

Calling someone a "MILF" is tantamount to saying "I'd like to fuck you." It has all of the same meaning: "You're a human (mother) I'd like to fuck." It's disingenuous to call this a compliment.

Dudes on this thread are being histrionic, like, if I can't call a woman a MILF at work, what's next, the PC gestapo are going to prevent me from making eye contact with women.

I can't stress this enough: if not being able to call a woman a MILF in your day to day life is an imposition, you really need to reevaluate how you talk to (and think about) women. I'll skip the moral appeal and go straight to self interest: on average, women just don't like that shit. You catch more flies with honey than you do unwelcome, overly sexually aggressive comments.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>My reaction would be to just fire both. What did the existing employee do to deserve such treatment?

Maybe the OP hasn't shared all information but if asking someone out and/or complimenting someone's appearance (albeit crudely) is now the equivalent of sexual harassment then be prepared for a rapid decline in population since no one will want to be the first one to make a move.

"since no one will want to be the first one to make a move."

It's a work environment, not a bar. No one should normally need to make a "first move" in this context. Sure, work romances do sometimes happen, but I don't think our population is in any danger if they do not.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#124

Just to play devil's advocate: how hard is it to spoof whatsapp/slack messages if one wanted to get someone fired? If he denies that he sent the messages, or says he sent messages but the content has been altered where could the employer go then? "She's trying to get me sacked because ...". Where could you go from there to prove he committed an offense against propriety/policy? Also, a perhaps more realistic issue is…

He called her a milf to her face. That's completely unacceptable.

She was clear when she said "as friends at work". It wouldn't have been harassment if he hadn't been so crude and suggestive. if he'd just said "hey, want to have dinner some time?" Then it would have been a little forward, but not harassment. He didn't. He said "You're a mom I'd like to fuck".

It doesn't have to be ongoing to be harassment. Once you've declared "I'm the kind of guy that'll call you a milf to your face after only knowing you a short time"... all bets are off. Any time you're alone with him, you're going to feel uncomfortable. And I guarantee you, that kind of guy is not going to be a perfect angel the rest of the time. He clearly has messed up ideas of what is appropriate to say to women.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think the consensus in the grown-up business world is "fire immediately for cause." Not in my experience, and it's not the law (as taught in the myriad of training courses I've endured over the years). The man should have an opportunity to learn from this mistake, then be fired when he proves incapable of learning. Providing the warning and training is enough to legally cover the company's ass if the guy screws u…

It's not a mistake. He didn't leave the server room door open. He called her a MILF.... TO HER FACE. He's not 12 (I assume). If he hasn't learned to be respectful to women before now, it's not this guy's job to teach him.

Per the side of the story we know. Do you know something not present in this narrative?

The use of 'milf', whether it's derogatory or a compliment, will depend entirely on the context of the larger conversation. Something we don't have. Something which apparently the OP didn't have either.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a mistake. He didn't leave the server room door open. He called her a MILF.... TO HER FACE. He's not 12 (I assume). If he hasn't learned to be respectful to women before now, it's not this guy's job to teach him.

Per the side of the story we know. Do you know something not present in this narrative? The use of 'milf', whether it's derogatory or a compliment, will depend entirely on the context of the larger conversation. Something we don't have. Something which apparently the OP didn't have either.

And she felt so flattered that she went to her boss to show him the texts?

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#127
What happened to no harm no foul and a slap on the wrist this time and a clear policy to everyone that if it happens again by anyone, it won't be tolerated.

Why do you guys jump to the extremes?

I'm not in the US lawyer up of A though, but common sense should apply.

That said, ask a lawyer first, because clearly that is the land where we get our funny 'news' of 'someone when to court because of ludicrous action X, and won'.

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#128
From a legal standpoint, you need do nothing. He is not in any position to commit quid pro quo harassment. So far, there is no evidence of hostile workplace.

What your female employee has done is to cover her own ass in case the new male employee engages in any work-inappropriate behavior. If she comes to you again, and claims harassment, you are primed to believe her immediately and take immediate, appropriate action at that time.

Don't fire him. Don't kick his ass. Don't have a meeting with HR. Write down, "Ms. Y stated on [datetime] that Mr. X propositioned Y to upgrade beyond a work-only relationship, and Y declined. Y presented sufficient evidence to substantiate this claim." Attach a copy to both of their personnel files.

In two weeks, six weeks, and twelve weeks, proactively hold 1-on-1 meetings with all your employees, including Mr. X, and ask them if they feel as though Mr. X is assimilating well into the workplace. If no one has any complaints, even after you go fishing for them, there is no evidence of hostile workplace, and you have no further business with your employees' personal relationships.

It isn't your business to manage your employees' personal lives. It is your business to provide them with a safe, cordial, and productive work environment. It isn't your business to remediate unsavory bro-havior. I don't like how sales and biz dev tend to work in the real world, but I know that sometimes that kind of behavior is beneficial to a business. I just don't hang out with that sort of people in a social context. I prefer that their oily schmoozing be directed at potential customers, and I'm sure they prefer that I not ruin their good time with my dry-toast nerdity.

Personally, though, I would question the judgment of a biz dev employee whose first act in a new camp is to dig his latrine next to the watering hole. Aren't they supposed to cultivate new business relationships outside the company?

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#129
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd guess it's because she didn't handle it on her own, and instead relied on the manager. It's not your job to handle shit like that. If the person continues and it makes the work environment hostile than it might be, but not a one-time interaction like OP describes

Actually, as it potentially a source of liability for the company, reporting it to management if not merely acceptable but good for the management. On the other hand, firing the reporting party for reporting the incident is clearly and blatantly illegal.

What's the name of the liability? I'd like to look it up

Re: Ask HN: How do I deal with the first sexual harassment complaint at my startup?

#130

What happened to no harm no foul and a slap on the wrist this time and a clear policy to everyone that if it happens again by anyone, it won't be tolerated. Why do you guys jump to the extremes? I'm not in the US lawyer up of A though, but common sense should apply. That said, ask a lawyer first, because clearly that is the land where we get our funny 'news' of 'someone when to court because of ludicrous action X, an…

Curious why you think there was no harm done.
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