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Ask HN: Bitcoin business unexpectedly taking off, help!

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Re: Ask HN: Bitcoin business unexpectedly taking off, help!

#111

Post by blakeweb »

work_account_1 wrote: post #101
dmm wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money laundering is not unethical. It wasn't even illegal in the US until 1986. At the time the law was passed we were promised it would only be used against organized crime that couldn't be stopped any other way.

How exactly is money laundering not unethical? What's so ethical about assisting someone in getting away with a crime?

I'm guessing the intent is to say that anonymizing the source of money per se doesn't seem to do anyone any harm, much like accepting cash as a form of payment. The problem is when people use such channels to avoid detection of crimes by law enforcement. We have to decide as a society which conveniences or defenses of privacy (anonymizing the source of money being one) are worth sacrificing to enable better law enforcement.

Re: Ask HN: Bitcoin business unexpectedly taking off, help!

#112

Post by conductr »

work_account_1 wrote: post #102
logfromblammo wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not entirely convinced that money laundering is unethical in its own right. Certainly, profiting from unethical activity is only once removed from unethical. That would make obfuscating the taint on unethical-once-removed funds an act that is unethical-twice-removed. Clearly, there has to be some point at which we can no longer care, because I'm not certain that (metaphorically) there is a coin circulating that h…

Money laundering is an act of assisting someone in getting away with a crime. If you inadvertently do so, you're not guilty of money laundering. The intent has to be there.

Maybe that's the way you feel it should be, but it's not that way in the US. It's more a form of negligence. If you don't follow AML rules, you are negligent thus guilty.

Re: Ask HN: Bitcoin business unexpectedly taking off, help!

#113

Post by noonespecial »

If it were me, I'd back slowly away from this particular sleeping dog. You're playing both ends against the middle here. Fraudsters on one side and what can only be described as a vengeful, willfully belligerent government on the other. Both have infinite resources compared to you and a strong desire to do you harm.

Re: Ask HN: Bitcoin business unexpectedly taking off, help!

#114

Post by gamblor956 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #69
gamblor956 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tax law isn't very relevant here; the primary areas of concern are federal money transmission laws and criminal state and federal anti-laundering laws.

> the primary areas of concern are federal money transmission laws and criminal state and federal anti-laundering laws. Shouldn't that be "federal and state" in both cases, not just the anti-laundering case?

Yes, but too late to edit it.

Re: Ask HN: Bitcoin business unexpectedly taking off, help!

#115

Post by ekanes »

ashray wrote: post #105
ekanes wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

patio11 is right, you're about to have a major problem with gift cards going bad, which were bought with stolen credit cards. Happy to give more advice, you can reach me via my HN profile. Source: In a similar business for 16 months. (We sell gift cards for $ or BTC, but don't buy gift cards with bitcoin)

How do you handle compliance for your business (the bitcoin->giftcard one). From this discussion it seems like a total minefield. Do you ask your customers for their ID Proof/Address Proof ? (KYC/AML style) I know fraud isn't an issue for you at all because the bitcoin payments would be irreversible. I took a look through your site and there are some really great deals (7% cheaper! wow!), great work btw!

Thanks! In a nutshell, the higher the dollar amount, the more care we put into transactions and relationships.

Re: Ask HN: Bitcoin business unexpectedly taking off, help!

#116

Post by dnsco »

lprubin wrote: post #110
work_account_1 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How exactly is money laundering not unethical? What's so ethical about assisting someone in getting away with a crime?

I think you need to explain why money laundering is unethical. Because there are plenty of laws passed by various governments that many people feel would be unethical to follow. To use an extreme example, was it unethical to hide jews from the Nazi's?

This conversation is officially over http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Re: Ask HN: Bitcoin business unexpectedly taking off, help!

#117

Post by gamblor956 »

dreamdu5t wrote: post #96
0xdeadbeefbabe wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this is so general that lots of business would fit. A bitcoin pool ambiguously, perhaps, transfers value too. Why are they so non-neutral about this, and does it help us that they are?

Lots of businesses fit, but only ones with cash to take or political points to score will be targeted.

Politics and money has nothing to do with it.

Patio11 only posted an excerpt of the rules. Most businesses which fit this excerpt are excluded by portions of the rules not posted here but which are contained in the link. For example, those exceptions are why retailers who sell gift cards are not treated as money transmitters.

Re: Ask HN: Bitcoin business unexpectedly taking off, help!

#118

Post by riter »

lprubin wrote: post #110
work_account_1 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How exactly is money laundering not unethical? What's so ethical about assisting someone in getting away with a crime?

I think you need to explain why money laundering is unethical. Because there are plenty of laws passed by various governments that many people feel would be unethical to follow. To use an extreme example, was it unethical to hide jews from the Nazi's?

Godwin's Law much?

Re: Ask HN: Bitcoin business unexpectedly taking off, help!

#119

Post by bradleysmith »

pc86 wrote: post #94
redthrowaway wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's far more akin to a guy who sells guns out of his trunk in a dark alley. Chances are, it's being used for crime, even if there are legitimate uses for it.

No, because selling guns out of your trunk is a crime more often than not. This is a poor analogy.

Actually, it is not a crime in most US states. Person-to-person firearm sales are a wonderful example of a seller choosing to assess the intention of the buyer, and the moral ambiguity that this represents. A person can legally sell firearms out of his trunk in a great many places asking for nothing more than proof of age of the buyer.

This method of sale represents ~40% of all gun sales in the US. It would be safe to assume that the majority of guns purchased with the intention to commit crime are purchased person-to-person. There's a good breakdown of nationwide person-to-person regulations here[1].

[1] - http://smartgunlaws.org/private-sales-policy-summary/

Re: Ask HN: Bitcoin business unexpectedly taking off, help!

#120

Post by riter »

dmm wrote: post #97
humanrebar wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can only assume many of them have no idea what they are potentially exposing themselves to from a legal perspective. Or an ethical perspective even.

Money laundering is not unethical. It wasn't even illegal in the US until 1986. At the time the law was passed we were promised it would only be used against organized crime that couldn't be stopped any other way.

Laws against anonymizing sources of income (Money laundering) are primarily enforced for tax evasion purposes. It's the catch all for even the most brilliant of enterprising "criminals".
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