Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#1

Post by sake » Fri, Jul 05, 2019, 3:12 PM UTC

I recently started a day job where I'm expected to work a normal 8 hour workday. No one is holding me accountable that I stick to that so it seems the requirement is more of a formality, but that's besides the point.

As I've experienced trying to keep up this 8 hour work, I've come to realize that sticking to this old assembly line convention makes absolutely no sense for our field of work. On a good day I can work even 12h+, but usually my limit is somewhere around 4 and ½ hours. And after six hours I'm just burning myself out trying to force myself to focus. At 8 hours I can feel physical pain and it will take me whole evening to recover when I get off the clock.

It's silly how many companies are still sticking to this old rule. Nobody wins when employees are wasting their time being inefficient. If the 8 hours workday is actually enforced, employees will just come up with coping mechanisms against the stress the overly stretched workday is causing them and they will end up loosing motivation.

Conservative improvement would be working 6h * 5 + 4h on Saturday (remotely), which would make employees more efficient, mentally healthy and that's 6 hours less work time per week.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#2

Post by ineedasername » Fri, Jul 05, 2019, 3:28 PM UTC

I don't think I've ever heard this type of complaint before. In my case, and I'd wager a significant chunk of this community, doesn't have too much of a problem putting in an 8 hour day. Sure, distractions arise sometimes, sometimes it's harder to focus, but overall it seems like you are describing your own limitations, not those of a majority.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#3

Post by sake » Fri, Jul 05, 2019, 3:36 PM UTC

ineedasername wrote: post #2

I don't think I've ever heard this type of complaint before. In my case, and I'd wager a significant chunk of this community, doesn't have too much of a problem putting in an 8 hour day. Sure, distractions arise sometimes, sometimes it's harder to focus, but overall it seems like you are describing your own limitations, not those of a majority.

Distractions are not really my problem, it's mental exhaustion. If anything I think I should probably have more breaks, when I'm at work I just work. I see majority of people procrastinating, reading news, social media or socializing with coworkers to take their mind off work from time to time.

If you can work 8 hours straight with only a lunch break, I don't think you are doing very mentally intensive work.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#4

Post by 0xd171 » Fri, Jul 05, 2019, 3:39 PM UTC

You're expected to be at work for ~8 hours, not to problem solve for that long. (Hopefully, if you're at a half-decent company). You have email and chat to manage, stand-ups, other meetings and calls, coffee breaks, lunch. Most people can set up their day in a way that they can be productive without feeling like they need to be constantly 100% concentrated.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#5

Post by Rainymood » Fri, Jul 05, 2019, 3:48 PM UTC

sake wrote: post #3

ineedasername wrote: post #2

I don't think I've ever heard this type of complaint before. In my case, and I'd wager a significant chunk of this community, doesn't have too much of a problem putting in an 8 hour day. Sure, distractions arise sometimes, sometimes it's harder to focus, but overall it seems like you are describing your own limitations, not those of a majority.

Distractions are not really my problem, it's mental exhaustion. If anything I think I should probably have more breaks, when I'm at work I just work. I see majority of people procrastinating, reading news, social media or socializing with coworkers to take their mind off work from time to time. If you can work 8 hours straight with only a lunch break, I don't think you are doing very mentally intensive work.

I have studied and kept detailed logs of my work for years. When I reach 4-5 hours of "real" work (i.e. deep work) I am mentally exhausted and I consider it a good day.

No one expects you to be 8 hours straight in the zone, no one does. And if you can do so, the more power to you, but be careful not to burn yourself out.

3-5 hours of deep work - that's it

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#6

Post by zzzcpan » Fri, Jul 05, 2019, 3:52 PM UTC

ineedasername wrote: post #2

I don't think I've ever heard this type of complaint before. In my case, and I'd wager a significant chunk of this community, doesn't have too much of a problem putting in an 8 hour day. Sure, distractions arise sometimes, sometimes it's harder to focus, but overall it seems like you are describing your own limitations, not those of a majority.

> In my case, and I'd wager a significant chunk of this community, doesn't have too much of a problem putting in an 8 hour day.

I don't think I ever encountered programmers working 8 hours per day 5 days a week. Even 6 hours per day is too draining, only young people can do it. Sustainable productive programming work is like 15-20 hours per week tops without strict bounds on how much you can do in a day.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#7

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jul 05, 2019, 4:03 PM UTC

sake wrote: post #3

ineedasername wrote: post #2

I don't think I've ever heard this type of complaint before. In my case, and I'd wager a significant chunk of this community, doesn't have too much of a problem putting in an 8 hour day. Sure, distractions arise sometimes, sometimes it's harder to focus, but overall it seems like you are describing your own limitations, not those of a majority.

Distractions are not really my problem, it's mental exhaustion. If anything I think I should probably have more breaks, when I'm at work I just work. I see majority of people procrastinating, reading news, social media or socializing with coworkers to take their mind off work from time to time. If you can work 8 hours straight with only a lunch break, I don't think you are doing very mentally intensive work.

[deleted]

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#8

Post by HissingMachine » Fri, Jul 05, 2019, 4:14 PM UTC

I'm a project manager and I am very relaxed about working hours and remote work. And it's because I have been monitoring my own programming habits for years and came to a conclusion that it is as much a creative process as it is technical execution. Depending on the complexity of the problem at hand, one hour of programming (monitored with wakatime) usually includes two to three hours of reading documentation, going through source to hunt a bug or planning a feature you are implementing. So I usually set up the tasks as milestones, usually bugs that we have to crush or features we have to implement, usually we have a pretty good pace on projects and people seem to be way more productive than other places I have worked that had a stricter culture.

Now this is my first time as a project manager, but I have set things up the way I would want to work, and I have had positive feedback from my team and management. So I'm pretty pleased with how things are going, YMMV depending on how everything is set up so don't take this as an advice.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#9

Post by vpEfljFL » Fri, Jul 05, 2019, 4:22 PM UTC

We have 8h workdays and it seems ok for general public, especially for large companies where you can do only meetings all day without contributing anything despite your butt in a seat.

Nothing pushing govs to lower the working time, so deal with it. For me writing code more than 4-5h in a day is considered as a success today but when I have meetings it becomes a hard goal to achieve.

Re: Expecting programmers to problem solve for 8 hours is stupid

#10

Post by patatino » Fri, Jul 05, 2019, 4:22 PM UTC

If I would run a dev company, this is how I would do it:

- no open office

- no meetings in the morning

- no phones in the morning

- no slack/whatever in the morning

Try to create a window for devs where they can do some deep work for 3-4 hours. It doesn't have to be in the morning, whatever works the best for each developer.