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Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

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Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#981

Post by yogthos »

WASDx wrote: post #963
yogthos wrote: post #715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, we shouldn't underestimate the power of developing things in the open. Chinese open models benefit from the wisdom of an entire global research community while American engineers working on proprietary closed models are working in their own insular silos. It should be no surprise that the scientific community at large would pull ahead of these small teams. On top of that, doing research in the open amortizes th…

> On top of that, doing research in the open amortizes the cost. Can you elaborate on this? I appreciate the open models but don't see the economics behind just giving them away like now.

When the model is open, then anybody can download and trying doing things with it. Distill it, change its architecture, inspect how its layers work, and so on. A lot of research ends up being published as a result which the original authors of the model can integrate back to improve it. This is precisely why China now tops AI publications https://www.science.org/content/article/china-tops-world-art...

The models themselves aren't what's valuable. The goal is to get the models to become the global standard which everyone uses, and people are familiar with. This further ensures that standards and hardware will be developed around these models going forward. It ensure these models are what most people are familiar with using, and so on. This becomes common infrastructure like Linux that's effectively impossible for commercial offerings to compete with.

The money is going to come from providing custm integrations, customization, robotics applications, and operating cloud services like AWS. That's where Chinese companies are aiming. There's a good interview with Alibaba Cloud founder where he explains the strategy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPzevOpIzPg

While American companies are betting on the idea that if one model can pull away it's going to keep self improving and nobody will catch up, Chinese companies are betting there will be a plateau to this tech, and it's more important to focus on market dominance because they will catch up later.

And it's becoming clear that Chinese companies made the right bet because Chinese models are closing the gap now, which means there is no singularity effect being observed with frontier models. We are starting to get to the point of diminishing returns already where companies have to put ever more effort into squeezing just a bit more capability. The easy gains appear to be over.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#983

Post by bel8 »

gck1 wrote: post #845

GPT 5.6* throw fits on anything even remotely related to reverse engineering, and I'm not ever paying anything more than $20 to Anthropic anymore. How's Kimi in this area?

I used K2.7 to reverse engineer a protocol from Wireshark packages. No complaints. K3 should be fine too.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#984

Post by bel8 »

lrsaturnino wrote: post #970
bel8 wrote: post #938

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What harness? These can make or break benchmarks because of tool call failures/limitations. And is the benchmark open source?

Pi. The benchmark is local, mostly stuff from my work, I run it everytime a new model comes up. The top model rn is gpt 5.6 sol, followed by fugu ultra, fable, opus 4.8, gpt 5.5 and glm 5.2 (which is the REAL IMPRESSIVE one still). Kimi-k3 is 14th in the list.

Cool, and how is it ranked?

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#985

Post by trollbridge »

abalashov wrote: post #863

I switched to exclusively Chinese models, mostly Kimi, many months ago. I'll still ask Claude questions that require ambitious real-time web search / worldly knowledge, but for just about anything else, the Chinese models have been so good that I haven't looked back.

I did the same, although last week we switched back to GPT-5.6 since OpenAI is giving the farm away pricing/reset wise.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#988

Post by moritzwarhier »

katzenversteher wrote: post #771
orbital-decay wrote: post #749

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a known and solved problem. Such a test is pointless for a general-purpose model, because like most people you're using multiturn chats in a naive way, fighting the default finetuning that is done intentionally. 1. You're sending your in-character inputs to an instruction-tuned model under the user role, in a multiturn chat. It's biased to treat these inputs as instructions and this behavior will show itself…

You have some very good points and my approach was indeed naive. However, I believe it also shows that "general-purpose" models are not really general purpose and can't really step out of their assistant role. A common and often promoted prompting technique is to prompt a model to "behave like ..." or "you are a ..." which means these instructions do not really work.

> However, I believe it also shows that "general-purpose" models are not really general purpose and can't really step out of their assistant role. A common and often promoted prompting technique is to prompt a model to "behave like ..." or "you are a ..." which means these instructions do not really work.

I think you're still confusing model and "LLM app" there.

I'm not that versed myself in these things, but you can, for example, look at the conversation templates, stop markers etc. in open weight models on HuggingFace, or play around with these things by yourself and modify them using llama.cpp or ollama (the things I mention in this paragraph are, AFAIK, not part of the model). These, and parameters like temperature, sampling etc. are just the things that can be controlled without touching the model.

Of course, frontier models and their uses have supposably a lot more machinery built around them to orchestrate their usage, apart from even chatbots defaulting to "agentic" behavior for many use cases.

And models still are specialized, and fine-tuned for instruction usage, so things like the conversation template, system prompts won't be enough to bend the characteristics of such a model in all desired directions. But "general-purpose model" has become a very fuzzy term by now.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#989

Post by preg_match »

austinthetaco wrote: post #267
zarzavat wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's like reading Anthropic's obituary.

This is weird and reactionary. Lots of organizations are continuing to refuse to use chinese models due to security and IP concerns. Anthropic/american models aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

The inverse is also true: many companies are refusing to use American models due to security and IP concerns. And it's more concerning here: American companies straight up say they will train on your IP; local Chinese models structurally can't. The security concern goes this way too: for American companies, you're relying on their own security infrastructure and essentially blind trust. For locally hosted Chinese models, you 100% control the security story.

The reality this demonstrates: most US companies don't give even 2 shits about their IP, and are fine willingly handing it to Anthropic et al. Those that do care largely must care contractually. For group 2, they're either using Chinese today or aren't using AI at all. Those are the only two valid options, there is no secret "use US but self host it" third option.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#990

Post by preg_match »

utilize1808 wrote: post #914
adam_arthur wrote: post #910

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely different levels of stickiness. The OS runs everything; the LLM can be swapped in a second. (But yes, you will have to tweak prompts+tuning anytime you change models)

Corporates aren't running Linux not because it's hard to switch. Corporates are sticking to MS because of compliance and admin costs.

But corps are running Linux, in that sense that basically every serious web application is running on a Linux backend. Even if you use IaaS.

Basically, companies that are "in the know" and develop software utilize linux as much as they reasonably can. Companies that aren't, don't, but do "use it" kind of transitively through their software.

Where Linux does not hold is in Corporate Desktop IT. Mostly because of inertia of all things. MBAs need their Excel, and let's be honest. These people just... do not learn new tools. They certainly have the ability, but the culture is such that they just don't. So it's not even a choice really. No Windows = No Excel = No serious business person is okay with this.

Maybe, maybe, if your company is mostly developers then you can swing desktop IT linux. But your IT department will fight you, yes they will. And HR will be pissed. And I sure hope your CEO is also a developer. If he's a business guy, well... boss baby needs his Excel. How's he gonna do anything without Excel.

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