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Justin Trudeau promises to resign as PM

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Re: Justin Trudeau promises to resign as PM

#981

Post by NoMoreNicksLeft »

eumenides1 wrote: post #968
NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #704

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I hesitate to call them protesters because I don't think they had a permit or a cohesive message beside F* Trudeau I would assert that so-called "votes of no-confidence" in politicians are legitimate protest, even if they do not criticize any specific policy or behavior. It would be a strange world to live in where protests could or would be shut down and everyone would taunt the protesters with "but you didn't have…

There is a giant chasm between "F* Trudeau" and "Stalin is bad". Some people would like you to believe it's close, and they would be wrong. Stalin murdered/tortured people en masse. Trudeau oversaw a government (democratically elected mine you) through a once in a century pandemic. The convoy of protesters made a point, was allow to make it for sufficient period of time, and was told to go away when a majority of Can…

>There is a giant chasm between "F* Trudeau" and "Stalin is bad".

There might well be a giant chasm between Trudeau and Stalin, that's a matter of proper objective measurement which I don't think is easy and certainly has never been done. There is no chasm whatsoever between "fuck Trudeau" and "Stalin is bad". Not even much semantically. In choosing one politician/bureaucrat/whatever over another, I do not agree that anyone ever need justify their choices. Someone saying "I've stopped supporting this politician" whether don't politely or rudely, is valid. Protesting need not have any more message than this.

If protesting did require something more sophisticated than the assertion that one no longer supports them, then the weaseliest politicians and other charlatans could abuse that requirement (in fact, they already try to do so, and apologists make that easier for them to attempt it).

>and was told to go away when a majority of Canadians didn't agree with their stance.

It's unclear that a majority disagreed. It's unclear to me that there remains a majority at all in Canada.

>When faced with reality of their unpopular nature and their inability to build a momentum or consensus. They dug in.

Again, I'm not sure that's reality. If they could be deluded into thinking there were more of them than there were, what makes you immune to the reverse?

>and none of what the protesters did mattered.

We at least agree that it didn't matter in the ways that they hoped. But it mattered otherwise, when we saw the Canadian government use unjustifiable tactics to punish them even before they had been convicted of any crimes.

>None of the protesters continue to be persecuted

Well gee. When you put it like that, that "none *continue* to be persecuted" the complaints do sound kind of silly.

Re: Justin Trudeau promises to resign as PM

#982

Post by jjeaff »

ericmcer wrote: post #974
usixk wrote: post #955

Current canuck here. Since Trudeau has been elected the likelihood of purchasing a home or finding a job has drastically reduced and continues to fall. Rising tides raise all boats, given that the rent has risen everywhere too. This creates a divide between the have and have-nots of property ownership and public or private employment. This divides ends in the individuals who have are happy since their investment skyr…

This is almost identical to the US economy, we have decent job growth... until you remove government jobs. It's really insidious how the current setup kills small businesses and drives everyone to government work, if this trend continues will the government just slowly consume everything? Washington D.C. now is only behind SF and Seattle in average income. If you want money you either work for a sector that is boomin…

Almost all sectors in the US have seen job growth. Gov jobs have led in growth, but if you take out gov jobs, the US still sees job growth.

Re: Justin Trudeau promises to resign as PM

#983

Post by [deleted] »

ashoeafoot wrote: post #980
Manuel_D wrote: post #753

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You mean like what the pro-Palestinian folks did at UofT (not far from where I work) in 2024 and who lost a court case (2024 ONSC 3755)? I was fine it. How many of the UofT protestors were de-banked? There's a vast difference between having tents removed from a public space, and being cut off from essential parts of modern life. You can't pay insurance with cash. You can't have a regular phone contract. You may not…

like a illegal immigrant?

[deleted]

Re: Justin Trudeau promises to resign as PM

#984

Post by a-priori »

mlekoszek wrote: post #853
joemazerino wrote: post #819

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stories of harassment and assaults? Provide one source for any assault.

Glad you asked. * Pushing a reporter live on air: https://x.com/mylenecrete/status/1494874304814751744 * Beating a counter-protestor on camera: https://x.com/timabray/status/1488231660260839430?t=Bx4fGVxR... * Attacking a shop employee for masking up on their way to work: https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=23006638534070... * Smashing windows of a business with a Pride flag: https://imgur.com/a/80bmPQ8 * T…

Thanks for the list! I can say that three of the stories I was referring to above are the ones listed as "Attacking a shop employee for masking up on their way to work", "Smashing windows of a business with a Pride flag" and "Trying to handcuff shut the doors of an apartment building".

The first and second happened only a couple blocks away from us, and we frequented both businesses, so it was infuriating to see them and their employers attacked like that. We lived in an apartment building so the third one was pretty alarming.

Re: Justin Trudeau promises to resign as PM

#985

Post by adrr »

loceng wrote: post #944
SirSavary wrote: post #781

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 43% increase in federal jobs sounds big until you realize it’s ~110,000 positions over 9 years. For this to be the ‘majority of industry growth,’ Canada would need to have added just ~200,000 jobs in total since 2015. That’s laughably off—Canada typically adds hundreds of thousands of jobs annually. For context, Canada’s employment grew by ~2.7M jobs between 2015[1] and the end of 2024[2]. Federal job growth is a d…

A 43% increase and the state of affairs in Canada is far worse now, including that he doubled Canada's debt to over $1.2 trillion - so now our interest payments are also huge, far less money every day going to social services because it's instead just paying interest on the debt.

Came during the pandemic like every other country and still doesn’t compare to past debt level when compared to GDP which is how you compare debt.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_public_debt#/media/Fi...

Re: Justin Trudeau promises to resign as PM

#986

Post by dang »

relaxing wrote: post #961
dang wrote: post #844

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has since been heavily upvoted. The thing to do in such cases (i.e. when you notice an unfairly downvoted comment) is give it a corrective upvote and move on. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...

“Corrective upvote” as a term is pretty hilarious — makes it sound like you think my vote is the correct one that will right the previous wrong the bozo downvoter. Utter solipsism. In 30 years of community moderation on the internet, I’ve never needed that term before. Thanks. Anyway, I want to talk to the people who somehow hate Canadians or who find the concept amusing. There are far more interesting ideas to be ha…

> makes it sound like you think my vote is the correct one that will right the previous wrong the bozo downvoter.

Well yes, except for the definite article. Any upvote counteracts any downvote. If a downvote was bad then an upvote can be corrective by neutralizing its badness. I thought that was obvious, so it's interesting that you don't.

> people who somehow hate Canadians or who find the concept amusing

There's also a boring explanation for some otherwise weird downvotes: misclicks.

Re: Justin Trudeau promises to resign as PM

#987

Post by dang »

busterarm wrote: post #756
dang wrote: post #598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flamebait like this will get you banned here, regardless of how right you are or feel you are. No more of this, please—it just leads to predictable, tedious internet hell. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42612168 . Edit: we've had to warn you about this kind of thing for years: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32890469 (Sept 2022) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30334539…

[flagged]

It's true that some of your 3 dozen comments in this thread were fine, but you were still breaking the site guidelines in many places. Here are some obvious examples:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42615237

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42613907

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42613574

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42613325

No one who has read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and wants to use HN as intended should be posting such things. These are not borderline cases. The fact that some of your other posts were fine doesn't make it ok, any more than helping old ladies cross the street makes it ok to rob banks. I wish it were otherwise, but moderation has to go by bad deeds, not good deeds.

Re: Justin Trudeau promises to resign as PM

#988

Post by dang »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #659
dang wrote: post #645

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your account has been breaking the site guidelines badly in this thread. Would you please stop? Regardless of how wrong someone else is or you feel they are, It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. We've had to ask you this before not long ago, so it would be good if you would review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and please fix this.

dang, it would help if you would clarify which guideline I'm violating. I see a lot of deep flame bait in this thread. A lot of it by people of another country, making claims about my own for partisan and ideological purposes. Context here is important given news in recent weeks, with Trudeau's name on the lips of people like Trump, Musk, etc. I have a "karma" of almost 20,000 and have been on hackernews for a very l…

I'm sorry I couldn't respond to this sooner! I got started on a reply and then ended up on a flight with no wifi.

> it would help if you would clarify which guideline I'm violating

I know, and I wish I had the cycles to clarify this in every case; it's just not possible. If you look at the first paragraph of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42629499, I wrote a longer explanation about this for a different user who was asking the same thing (albeit rather less politely).

As a quick answer though, comments like these broke the site guidelines by using inflammatory rhetoric, cross-examination, calling names, snark, and crossing into personal attack:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42615211

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42615260

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42615521

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42615584

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42615752

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42616108

> I have a "karma" of almost 20,000 and have been on hackernews for a very long time at this point

I know! and that's why I don't want to ban you, as I said here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42073831.

> I see a lot of deep flame bait in this thread.

Me too, so I spent hours moderating it and posted 20 or so requests to people to stop, as well as a general admonition at the top of the thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42616355.

> A lot of it by people of another country, making claims about my own

Such perceptions aren't reliable. Internet readers tend to back-fit such perceptions to their assumptions about who would be holding a given position and why; but these assumptions are frequently contradicted by the data. Since the perceptions mostly add to one's feelings of aggravation, it's best to remember that one doesn't actually know these things (e.g. who is posting from where) and suspend them.

Unfortunately we can't publish the data without violating people's privacy, but many comments opposing your views were posted from Canadian IP addresses and many comments supporting your views were posting from IP addresses outside Canada. Not a perfect indicator, but it's clear that this argument breaks down on ideological lines, not national lines.

> it feels odd given my citizenship and past here, to single me out

You were in no way being singled out, and certainly not given your citizenship! If you look through my other posts in this thread (not that I recommend it), you'll see how many other admonishments I posted. We're as careful as we know how to be to moderate HN based on the site guidelines, not people's views, let alone their nationality, background, or anything like that.

There were tons of other users breaking the site guidelines in this thread, but it wasn't possible to get to them all. Unfortunately people tend to jump to the conclusion, when they see a bad post going unmoderated, that the mods must secretly agree with it. Nothing could be further from true; most likely we just didn't see it.

> There are some issues which trigger emotional response.

Indeed there are. The question then becomes how well we each can regulate our emotional responses. Commenters here are asked to do that regardless of how wrong others are or one feels they are. If you (> if you're not ready for the level of passionate vitriol this topic will unleash, it's best to lock or flag this whole topic

We do that much of the time but I don't believe it's either possible or desirable to do it all the time. For this community to fulfill its mandate, we need occasional cases of difficult and divisive topics getting frontpage discussion, and community members need to develop the maturity and self-regulation to be able to do it respectfully, remaining curious, even in the presence of others who are not doing that at all. Longstanding members have the most responsibility to do this.

It would be so much easier and less stressful not to take on that challenge, but then HN would be less than it might be, and it's our job to try to help it fulfill its potential.

Re: Justin Trudeau promises to resign as PM

#989

Post by kennyloginz »

freedomben wrote: post #358
mass_and_energy wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

YSK that the people who had their accounts frozen weren't simply protesting in Ottawa; they were blocking international borders to our largest trading partner, effectively holding our economy hostage. This absolutely constitutes behavior that's a danger to our nation so it makes sense to freeze the accounts of the people doing it. To be clear, there were many attempts to settle this without freezing people's bank acc…

Out of curiosity, how do you feel about labor strikes? If customs, border control, longshoremen, or some other union decided to strike and picket would you support having the feds declare them terrorists and doing the banking thing?

If they blocked travel arteries like highways and bridges for more than a hour or two.

Re: Justin Trudeau promises to resign as PM

#990

Post by kennyloginz »

Khaine wrote: post #743
adamc wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a Canadian, but no, a protest protests and gives voice to the disagreement. Blocking other people's rights is not just a protest and is likely to trigger action to protect others. That's how it goes everywhere that has rights. Normally, some effort is made to do it peacefully, but there are no countries where you can halt the economy whenever you want to force people to negotiate with you.

so you were okay with BLM blocking freeways, and city roads?

Did this ever happen for more than a day?
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