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Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

timjrobinson.com

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Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#981

Post by reportgunner »

carabiner wrote: post #903
lvs wrote: post #339

Let's say I'm a landlord. If you give my tenant $1000/month, I'll just take it. Their rent is now R+1000 next year. You could tax the $1000 back away from me, but that doesn't stop the price from rising. It actually just boosts my incentive to take every last cent of the $1000 that I can extract. I think you all need to think more about the economics. You have to be willing, on rational grounds, to step away from fre…

Let's say I'm a different landlord. If the other landlords are raising their rents, I know that by not raising mine, I can attract more tenants and increase my occupancy rate. Maybe I'm at 70%, and I need 80% to cover my costs. I know that if I raised my rents by $1,000/month, I would lose tenants to the landlords who didn't.

Imagine this places where landlords have so many candidates that they have a hard time even responding to all of them.

It's a disappointing realization but it doesn't work.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#982

Post by highenergystar »

It seems that the current model of of the economy with inflation and growth targets is ripe for revision.

It has pernicious effects of causing 'growth for growth sake' including a vast infrastructure of wasteful spending - e.g. crop subsidies, fuel subsidies etc., millions of bullshit jobs[1] and an overall bias to create and foster consumption based economies.

That model was fine for a time of population expansion and little concern for co-ordination problems (e.g. environmental impacts, labor exploitation). In a time of rapidly slowing population growth (in developed and even many developing countries) and to avoid disruptions due to climate crises, the focus should be to improve the efficiency of the workforce, and direct that workforce to work on the several jobs that desperately need to be done - restore infrastructure, research and deploy efficient and clean technology and remediate (to the extent possible) the environment. If there is still productive capacity left over, it could be spent on reducing tail risk (e.g. viruses)

https://www.strike.coop/bullshit-jobs/

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#983

Post by [deleted] »

umvi wrote: post #889
habosa wrote: post #526

I like the simple argument made here about UBI enabling efficient consumption. I worry about three things with UBI though and they're more social than economic. 1. Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. We can see this a little bit with the coronavirus relief packages. 2. Predator…

I fundamentally don't like UBI because, like other forms of welfare, it makes the poor ever more reliant on the government without incentive to become self-reliant. I'm a strong believer in self-reliance. I think solutions that tackle poverty should have a path to self-reliance in there. Current welfare programs reward continued reliance and punish self-reliance (i.e. government benefits yanked if you try to suppleme…

[deleted]

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#985

Post by indrax »

bmitc wrote: post #652
onion2k wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Power Divide - society will be easily divided into two groups: those who depend on the UBI to live and those who don't. The former will be absolutely at the mercy of the latter. One aspect of UBI is that poor people would be less at the mercy of the rich. If you're a poor person now you absolutely have to try to keep your horrible job else you'll lost the ability to pay rent and buy food. You have to take all the cra…

> One aspect of UBI is that poor people would be less at the mercy of the rich. That is a very strong statement that I don't think can be claimed at this point. In my opinion, I feel things will simply shift under UBI. People will receive UBI, but then other things, like rent, food, etc. will all just magically get more expensive. I cannot see any implementation of UBI working any better than things now unless the pr…

>just magically get more expensive.

It would take magic. The markets for most basic necessities are reasonably efficient. There's no major monopoly on them and it's not that hard for anyone to enter the market.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#986

Post by Zamicol »

zanny wrote: post #560
maurys wrote: post #394

I haven't seen this discussed as much, but I am worried about population rises along with a UBI. Especially amongst poorer communities where extra children are viewed as financial stability. Already with free schooling and meals, there is a mindset that you can raise kids and let the state take care of them to some degree. But I guess UBI is far more likely to be implemented in places which don't have population prob…

Most proposals don't give UBI to dependents. You get UBI when you are no longer the obligation of someone else because then you are truly on your own. It is important not to inadvertently incentivize those without the financial means to raise kids to have them. Its better for their mental health, society as a whole, and the children if they economically prosper first and reproduce later.

I would love to see some links or further conversation on this.

If the reproduction issue was really nailed down, I would support UBI. Without strong protections preventing runaway reproduction I'm firmly anti-UBI.

This is the biggest issue for me.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#987

Post by jondubois »

This article forgets to mention that right now the Fed is printing and giving free money to corporations via pretend-loans. The interest rates are so low that, in the hands of large corporations, the loans pay themselves off through stock price inflation which the loans themselves create (including future loans).

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#988

Post by Unsimplified »

Thought experiment. Suppose 10K people have the technology and willingness to volunteer enough worktime to provide the essentials for all of the US. Some basic income program is implemented to distribute these necessities. Possible? Yes. Sustainable? Yes, bounded by science and political stability. Good? Yes on quality of life floor and economic freedom. Conditional yes depending on competitive accessibility of the system (anti corruption/abuse). Fair? Better if more people share the work burden.

Wise governments should set policies to help this transition.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#989

Post by peacefulhat »

dev_tty01 wrote: post #305
peacefulhat wrote: post #284

> "Even the most hardcore anti-capitalists have to give respect to how the combination of capitalism and technology has worked to lift most of the world out poverty and provided us with the security and comfort only kings enjoyed just a few century’s ago." I really don't have to. The best tools in software are free and open source, and if I contrast that with the tools which aren't it's really obvious that there are…

>Research, engineering and trade are some of the real reasons for rapid growth. And how is that not the combination of capitalism and technology? Trade is capitalism and research and engineering create technology, as you point out, funded by capitalism.

Do you consider USSR capitalist since it had trade, research, and engineering? Incoherent.

Re: Universal Basic Income is Capitalism 2.0

#990

Post by HeavyStorm »

The poorest person in a certain place has 10 income. The richest 10^1000. Prices reflect that - some goods are exclusive and have a price relative to 10^1000, whereas others reflect income as low as 10. Why? Mostly because there's a market of people earning 10, so, as long as you can produce goods with less than 10, you'll profit. Still, those with 10 have little access to important goods like housing.

Now, people have UBI. Let's say, 1000? Prices now reflect the poorest person with 10+1000 and the richest with 10^1000+1000. Goods and services that targeted the 10 income market are now priced for the 10+1000. Housing goes up, food goes up, everything goes up.

The power of money is relative. Adding money to an economy adds inflation, and adding money até the base of the pyramid inflates crucial goods and services.[1]

So, unfortunately, the solution isn't as simple as UBI.

1 https://youtu.be/UfeTFKXbhGY

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