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Moving Forward on Basic Income

blog.ycombinator.com

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Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#971

Post by neon_electro »

ivanhoe wrote: post #792

Perhaps I'm missing something, but how BI accounts for the fact that not everyone has the same basic needs or expenses? Someone will need expensive medications, another in-home care services, parents will need to spend money on kids, pay for daycare/schools, etc. Writing the same check to everyone might save you from bureaucracy, but it will put vulnerable groups in a relatively worse position, while single healthy p…

I can't respond to all of the needs and expenses you enumerate, but I'm of the opinion that you need to have a single-payer healthcare system or something similar that decouples medical emergencies from their costs, so that a basic income isn't needed to pay for those emergencies.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#972

Post by jpindar »

xienze wrote: post #60

So, a question for the BI fans: I've seen it said repeatedly that BI will save us money (or at least, not be so outrageously expensive) in part because we can eliminate existing welfare programs. "Just cut a single check, no more overhead from several agencies", they say. But riddle me this: what do you do when someone on BI has a financial emergency or, as will happen with some regularity, just flat-out blows all th…

Same thing that happens now. Do you think that a person on government assistance now can get more money just by asking for it?

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#973

Post by MicroBerto »

shkkmo wrote: post #711
MicroBerto wrote: post #632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I've found here on HN is that there is an extremely large amount of "wishful projection" and selection bias, in that many people here are young and promising entrepreneurs-in-training, and they believe that basic income will allow them to work on their startup dream without having to worry about paying the bills. While that may be true, they fail to realize that they are in the extreme minority of actually-motiv…

> While that may be true, they fail to realize that they are in the extreme minority of actually-motivated people who would make a good use-case of basic income. > The vast majority of the world will fall into other categories, such as non-productivity or black markets. Not everyone wants to go build the next great app, folks! The ratio of people who will find themselves something to do vs. people who will just veg a…

> I am open to other suggestion for "What do you do with all of those idle hands and minds?", but you don't provide any.

I don't think there's any perfect solution, once automation is truly nailed. People don't want to be told what to do or forced into work, but I also think that they need something to work for otherwise we'll collectively go insane.

Ever watch Black Mirror? If not, go see the episode titled "Fifteen Million Merits". Something along those lines, sadly....

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#974

Post by neon_electro »

dba7dba wrote: post #841

We need to ensure Living Wage is paid.

I think a Universal Basic Income would help with this. Given the ability to survive without working a shitty, low-paying job, you now have the ability to say no to said jobs. Meaning demand for said jobs goes down, forcing the employer to automate or raise wages so that someone takes the job.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#975

Post by xchaotic »

morgante wrote: post #442
eanzenberg wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Tough shit" sucks when parents blow their handout on lottery tickets and drugs, leaving their children in perpetual poverty.

If you blow your guaranteed income on vices, you are unfit to be a parent. I see no reason such parents should keep their children.

So you just give money to people with no strings attached, and when they spend it however they like, you take their kids away. That is pure evil mastermind, a bit like imperial British did with Aboriginals in Australia.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#976

Post by dilemma »

krashnburn200 wrote: post #901
dilemma wrote: post #887

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scenario: You're married with 2 kids and live in San Francisco. Is an $8,000/year UBI going to enable you to quit your $100,000/year job without another lined up?

Obviously it would. You are trying to conflate having a family with living in an over priced high demand location. Try again.

No, I'm saying that in many cases UBI is far too low to have any effect at all. Unless you put it at $100,000/year.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#977

Post by jpindar »

jklinger410 wrote: post #88
xienze wrote: post #60

So, a question for the BI fans: I've seen it said repeatedly that BI will save us money (or at least, not be so outrageously expensive) in part because we can eliminate existing welfare programs. "Just cut a single check, no more overhead from several agencies", they say. But riddle me this: what do you do when someone on BI has a financial emergency or, as will happen with some regularity, just flat-out blows all th…

>Do you tell them "tough shit, you've exhausted all your social safety nets" At that point we would need to investigate to see if this failure is being caused by mental illness. Treatment would be much easier if our current homeless shelters could use their infrastructure to help people like this. They take your UBI check and give you a place to stay, treat you for drug addictions, etc etc. Either that or you end up…

So much for being a digital nomad.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#978

Post by andrenth »

lewisl9029 wrote: post #804

The most compelling case I've seen made recently for basic income is from Yanis Varoufakis (the infamous Greek finance minister who resigned after refusing to agree to the terms of the bailout that the Greek people voted against in a referendum): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvgdtF3y0Ss There were many gems in that talk, but this one stood out to me in particular: "The right to turn down a job is essential for a w…

Contracts signed with the mafia are not free market contracts.

It's feasible to admit though that the mafia's own existence is a failure of governments in providing security for the population. Possibly a free market for police services would fix that. Otherwise, if the government would stop wasting people's money and its own time meddling with people's freedoms, it would be able to better deal with violent actions against individuals, one of its main attributions.

Regarding Greece, their lack of ability to say no is a direct consequence of their irresponsible actions of the past.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#979

Post by jrochkind1 »

carapace wrote: post #954
jrochkind1 wrote: post #763

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you feel the need to distinguish between "the bum", and "you", a victim of "automation crashing demand by throwing earners permanently out of the economy." Can't some portion of current 'bums', or the homeless, be victims of "automation crashing demand by throwing earners permanently out of the economy" too? I would think they are. Hasn't the process already begun, a long time ago, if perhaps speeding up now?…

Yes, in fact, this is exactly the point I was making. People are talking like the homeless are someone else when the rationale for UBI, in my opinion, is that we are almost all about to be homeless (unless we adjust our systems.)

Agreed, but you seemed to be suggesting that the current homeless or very poor are something different than that, and different from you and I. I think this is an inconsiderate and inaccurate suggestion, by and large.

Re: Moving Forward on Basic Income

#980

Post by exabrial »

phil248 wrote: post #782
exabrial wrote: post #760

If the "pro basic income" people gave 5 mins of their time to charity for every hour they talk about being an online social justice expert, we would have already solved these problems. BI fixes the symptoms, not the disease. The disease is that people think that they're being charitable by demanding social programs. Wrong. Being charitable means getting your hands dirty, helping people, educating them, physical prese…

I think you're missing the bigger point that we have been giving out food for generations and it has not helped reduce poverty. You're basically telling everyone to go do all the stuff people have always been doing that never works.

My question is did you take the $10 challenge... or no?

Last time I checked (on saturday), my local food kitchen was swarmed with hungry people, not an endless line of volunteers.

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