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U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

washingtonpost.com

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Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#961

Post by Auracle »

DiogenesKynikos wrote: post #848
Auracle wrote: post #741

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That amendment has never been tested in the grounds that the Trump administration is. It certainly wasn’t intended for the currently used purpose and will very much come down to “and subject to the jurisdiction thereof,” which anyone short of the best legal scholars in our country aren’t qualified to speak to.

The text of the amendment is as clear as day: anyone born in the US is automatically a citizen, with only a few, well defined exceptions (children of foreign diplomats). The Supreme Court already ruled on the meaning of the amendment in 1898, so there's no possible ambiguity left. Trump's executive order is just blatantly illegal.

Ah, but it's not so simple. Here's part of the majority opinion:

"Chinese persons, born out of the United States, remaining subjects of the Emperor of China, and not having become citizens of the United States, are entitled to the protection of, and owe allegiance to, the United States so long as they are permitted by the United States to reside here, and are “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” in the same sense as all other aliens residing in the United States. . . ."

You'll note the "so long as they are permitted by the United States to reside here" part. His parents weren't illegal immigrants. They were 'legally domiciled,' which was a thing at the time. Again, from my understanding it gets more in the weeds than that.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#962

Post by mig39 »

altairprime wrote: post #498
reaperducer wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK is betting that Apple’s greed outweighs their principles. Long odds. Three weeks ago, I would have agreed with you. Then Tim Cook wrote a check for $1,000,000.00 to help pay for Donald Trump's inauguration party.† In spite of what they led us to believe over the last couple of decades, Tim Cook and Apple are no different than any of the other tech companies genuflecting before the new emperor, whose stated goa…

As Apple isn’t based in the UK and owes no fealty to their government. I don’t agree that your citation is relevant here. Apple is a US company. Bribing local officials to overlook the gay founder is sensible corporate practices, however uncomfortable that is to consider. Revoking privacy guarantees globally, reversing years of public opinion gains overnight, is not. The UK cannot do anything to materially harm Apple…

> Bribing local officials to overlook the gay founder is sensible corporate practices

What does that mean? Who is the gay founder? Of Apple?

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#963

Post by anticensor »

_trampeltier wrote: post #855
aqueueaqueue wrote: post #789

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No cash... now that will cause a riot. Why? Tax evaders won't like it.

No, in most countrys you have no right for a bank accouny. So when you do something the bank does not like, you will fall complete out of the system. You cannot go to work, you cannot buy anything.

In the CBDC system, most commercial banks would cease to exist anyway, people would directly have accounts with the central banks.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#964

Post by throw10920 »

RobotToaster wrote: post #463
TechnicalVault wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It creates a nasty precedent doesn't it? If Apple can provide the UK government with foreign data, what's to stop Russia or China making them provide data on UK minister's phones, or more likely dissidents in exile? I can't see on what basis the government thinks they're going to get to be exceptional here?

It's also worth noting that one of the ways the five eyes get around domestic spying laws is to spy on each other's citizens. So the CIA spy on British citizens the UK government want to spy on, and GCHQ spy on American citizens the US government want to spy on. So this would indirectly allow the US government to spy on US citizens (even more than it already does, anyway)

This is a fun theory that I've heard repeatedly, but with no evidence. Is there any indication that this is actually legal and happening? I have friends who work in the space that tell me that it's neither.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#965

Post by anticensor »

aqueueaqueue wrote: post #792
elevatedastalt wrote: post #512

I feel Apple is one of the few companies that has the market power to say, Fuck you, we will just not sell or offer any services in your market, and I suspect that would be enough for voters to knock some sense into their government.

What is better for shareholder value? The privacy brand or the UK market.

Doesn't matter, cannot be done by the board alone, explicit shareholder approval required for shutdown.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#967

Post by jonplackett »

alt227 wrote: post #895
jonplackett wrote: post #812

I saw a comment earlier about this being the USA asking the UK to do this. Sounds like quite the conspiracy theory, but if the USA were not OK with this, the UK surely wouldn’t dare to take on a crown jewel in the US tech sector, potentially causing them serious problems.

US have asked for far more and far worse from Apple and been given it. Im sure UK was just following the precedent set from other governments.

What have they asked for and received worse than this?

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#968

Post by JoshTriplett »

chrisjj wrote: post #772
JoshTriplett wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really hope so. I would love to see that showdown. Hopefully, "can't buy an iPhone in the UK and everyone knows why" makes the Snooper's Charter a radioactive mess that legislators fall all over themselves to repeal.

I don't see how closing Apple UK would mean "can't buy an iPhone in the UK". Importing is a thing.

In which case, Apple still wins by not having to put in a backdoor.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#969

Post by dennis_jeeves2 »

ekianjo wrote: post #475
RobotToaster wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also worth noting that one of the ways the five eyes get around domestic spying laws is to spy on each other's citizens. So the CIA spy on British citizens the UK government want to spy on, and GCHQ spy on American citizens the US government want to spy on. So this would indirectly allow the US government to spy on US citizens (even more than it already does, anyway)

Why do you think 3 letters agencies care about the law? Ever heard of Snowden leaks?

Correct. The 'law' exists to provide common citizens something to argue on, and a sense of justice, even if not real.

A revolting citizenry can be potentially dangerous than a citizenry that is endlessly bickering amongst each other about the 'law'.

Re: U.K. orders Apple to let it spy on users’ encrypted accounts

#970

Post by isaacremuant »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #942
isaacremuant wrote: post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a pet theory when there's proof they have engaged in it through five eyes. We're not saying it respects the constitution or its intent. We're saying it's what happens. Black CIA sites weren't legal either, nor was torture.

> It's not a pet theory when there's proof they have engaged in it through five eyes What proof? You would think after all the leaks there have been, some proof would exist. Instead, you cling to a conspiracy theory based on a misunderstanding of an agreement.

The fact that you immediately went for "conspiracy theory" discredits you more than you think it discredits me.

They're all conspiracy theorists when the government is accused of wrongdoing and the "proof" demands and moving goalposts happen all the time. Helped by the lack of transparency and all encompassing powers of agencies and governments.

Your arguments boil down to repeating narratives and things like "X is illegal so it doesn't happen" which just shows how naivety is part of your bad argument repertoire. I'm sure black CIA sites and coup d'etats didn't happen if I can't prove them to your liking... And if I somehow satisfied you, there's some justification that make them lawful and correct.

Give me a break.

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