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Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

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Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#961

Post by dlivingston »

strogonoff wrote: post #269
injidup wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Little Johnny who tried really hard but still can barely write a for loop doesn't deserve a place in a comp sci course ahead of little Timmy who for some reason thinks in computer code. Timmy might be a lazy arse but he's good at what he does and for minimal effort the outcomes are amazing. Johnny unfortunately just doesn't get it. He's wanted to be a programmer ever since he saw the movie Hackers but his brain just…

My evaluation: 1. Whoever determined that he does not “deserve” this is wrong. There may be other constraints, but no one gets to frame it as “deserves” when a child wants to learn something. 2. If a teacher is unable to teach Johnny to write a for loop, despite Johnny’s genuine utmost motivation , I would question teacher’s competence or at least fit. 3. Like any mentor, a professor in higher ed may want to choose w…

Little Timmy here might be Stephen Hawking:

> Professor Hawking's laidback approach to education continued during his years studying physics at the University of Oxford. ''I once calculated that I did about a thousand hours' work in the three years I was there, an average of an hour a day.''

[0]: https://www.smh.com.au/technology/at-70-hawking-confesses-he...

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Hawking#:~:text=Hawkin....

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#962

Post by ta1243 »

tomjen3 wrote: post #514
junaru wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It even came with handwriting built in as authentication mechanism! AI detectors hate this secret! On a more serious note - US removed cursive from their curriculum almost two decades ago - something i cant wrap my head around as cursive is something the rest of the world(?) uses starting in middle school and onwards through the whole adult life.

Dane here. We don't write things in cursive. Sure we were thought cursive in school (my only remedial class! What a waste of time), but we write on computers. Very occasionally we might need to write up a sign or something. I did nearly all my exams on a computer. At one point the best writing tool was the fountain pen. It was a great invention and it had an appropriate script: cursive, which was the natural thing to…

Lol, multiple people downvoted you for some reason. A lot of Americans have this weird love of joined up handwriting. I wonder if it's because so much of their cultural history is based around a handwritten document and the mythos of the "John Hancock"

The time would be far better spent on say personal finance lessons, which people seem to really struggle with. What's a mortgage, what's a loan, what gets taxed, that sort of thing.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#963

Post by Sohcahtoa82 »

com2kid wrote: post #831
skhunted wrote: post #596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve done this but then you end up with students who are not used to “thinking”. They do bad on the test. Now I’m known as a hard teacher. Now people avoid my classes. Administration hounds me for having s low passing rate. I need a job. I now give easy tests. The real issue as I see it is that no one wants to face the reality that far too many incapable, incurious people are going to college. So I pretend to give re…

When I was in college there were professors who were hard but fair, hard and not fair, and just easy. Profs who were hard but fair never had a problem filling up their classrooms with students who self selected for wanting to learn. The hard but not fair ones were just assholes IMHO. The easy ones also had their classes filled up. My community college had two history profs, one had all essay questions, one had multip…

Throughout my time in college and university, I did have two teachers I would describe as "hard and not fair".

The first was a second-year Physics teacher at my community college. He said that at least 50% of the class should fail. Not 50% will fail, but that 50% should fail, and if less than 50% fails, the class was too easy. He demanded that we memorize 30+ equations that could appear on the final and did not allow a notecard of equations.

The other was my Algorithms teacher in my third year, who basically wasn't teaching what we really needed to know, as far as I was concerned. I was expecting to learn breadth/depth-first searching, binary search, sorting algorithms, maybe even path-finding like A* and Dijkstra's, etc. Instead, the entire course was about algebra dealing with Big-O, Big-Theta, and Big-Omega, with only a slight nod to how they related to code.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#964

Post by selimthegrim »

selimthegrim wrote: post #860
kayodelycaon wrote: post #635

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is entirely unsurprising to me. As taught to me, written English (in the US) has a much stricter structure and vocabulary. African-American English was used as the primary example of incorrect and unprofessional writing.

I think that it’s a little more complicated than that as the comment from Brad Daniels at this link would show - https://www.takeourword.com/TOW145/page4.html NB: I am not African-American, nor did I grew up on an African-American community, and I performed very well on all sorts of verbal tests. Yet, even I made the all intensive purposes mistake until well into adulthood. Probably a Midwestern thing.

*grow up in

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#965

Post by ncr100 »

skhunted wrote: post #491

I’ve been teaching in higher education for 30 years and am soon retiring. I teach math. In every math course there is massive amounts of cheating on everything that is graded that is not proctored in a classroom setting. Locking down browsers and whatnot does not prevent cheating. The only solution is to require face-to-face proctored exams and not allow students to use technology of any kind while taking the test. B…

Modern technology, disruption, and societal impact.

"It’s a clusterfuck."

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#966

Post by selimthegrim »

ta1243 wrote: post #959
selimthegrim wrote: post #854

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aren’t you still required to write out a statement in cursive when you take the SAT?

For what possible purpose?

Basically promising you’re not cheating and your answers are your own.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#967

Post by sevensor »

pdonis wrote: post #947
sevensor wrote: post #855

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m thinking about the long term here. I don’t care about grades, I think they’re a poor signal. What I care about is whether the engineer I’m working with fifteen years and four employers later actually learned the fundamentals. Some did, some didn’t, and I can tell the difference.

> What I care about is whether the engineer I’m working with fifteen years and four employers later actually learned the fundamentals. For professional engineers, at least, the degree is not what tells you whether they have learned the fundamentals. The license is. Even for engineers in domains where there is no licensing (such as software, for example), I would expect them to have learned the fundamentals on the job…

> What the degree signals to the employer is that the prospective employee will comply with their corporate process.

While this is true, I’ll take the engineer who studied diligently with an aim to learn the material over the one who was just in it for the credential. I don’t agree with your implication that you will learn the fundamentals equally well on the job. It certainly happens, but from what I’ve seen it’s usually people who never had the opportunity to learn in school who are aware of their gaps and seek to fill them in. The nonchalant attitude towards theory tends to persist in the workplace.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#968

Post by fargle »

skhunted wrote: post #491

I’ve been teaching in higher education for 30 years and am soon retiring. I teach math. In every math course there is massive amounts of cheating on everything that is graded that is not proctored in a classroom setting. Locking down browsers and whatnot does not prevent cheating. The only solution is to require face-to-face proctored exams and not allow students to use technology of any kind while taking the test. B…

all true. but rather than be frustrated, i just see it as an opportunity - your saying that there's a scarcity of people who know the material? if it's valuable, then that should lead to higher value for the good ones.

don't sweat the lazy ones, teach the ones who want to learn.

it sucks that a college degree is no longer a sure way to spot the "good students", but meh, been like that for 20 years or more.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#969

Post by skhunted »

calf wrote: post #960
skhunted wrote: post #786

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't or didn't? I had a different message to convey. You can't understand that. Or perhaps, you didn't understand that. Can't or didn't? I reiterate: But even requiring in person proctored exams is not the full solution. Students are not used to doing the necessary work to learn. They are used to doing the necessary work to pass. And that work is increasingly cheating. It’s a clusterfuck. I have calculus students wh…

I can understand that because you are not the first college professor I've interacted with. You had one chance to say something and yet you left it as an afterthought. That is the proof of your bias as a professional academic. Instead you have made an excuse that somehow your bias is inscrutable and are covering it up with more pedantry. The neoliberalization of academia extends to the attitudes of its people who rep…

I made the point I wished to make. Someone else made a point you wanted to hear. The two points were not quite the same. It will benefit you to find a way to accept that this occurs without getting into a tizzy.

Re: Do AI detectors work? Students face false cheating accusations

#970

Post by arnaudsm »

stanford_labrat wrote: post #681
lynndotpy wrote: post #619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a TA, I've seen graduate students succeed with answers blatantly copied from the internet (i.e. screenshots of the answer, rote copied answers, etc), and then I was asked to make a calculation to make sure the points reduction would not impact their final grade. This was before generative AI became so commonplace, and I got the impression this is super common place. It was a really disillusioning moment for me.

Seeing my fellow grad students cheat, then brag in the public student lounge to multiple people about having the highest score on the exam by “oh I didn’t even understand that question I just copied the answer key and I still got the highest score”, broke something in me. Our institutions are failing us, and I have never been more disillusioned.

Students cheat because our society values diplomas more than knowledge. If we reversed that belief system, cheating would disappear
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