Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO • Hacker News Board

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#951

Post by wpietri » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 3:29 PM UTC

uchi wrote: post #855

wpietri wrote: post #787

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the view is that some of the people you will soon be boss of are not deserving of the same civil rights as everybody else, then that is entirely relevant to his job. Because those employees would have a reasonable fear of discriminatory treatment.

...but they haven't had a fear of discriminatory treatment since he's...a fucking founder of mozilla and worked at the company for 15 years and lead many projects. If there was a fear of discriminatory treatment, we would've heard about it much sooner.

He helped strip a civil right from gay people. That's discriminatory treatment. More evidence is not needed for people to have a reasonable fear of further discrimination.

"We haven't detected X, ergo X doesn't exist" is an obviously false notion. It's false even in the same situation, but it's even more obviously wrong in a different one. As CTO, he would have had a hard time making a bigoted technical decision. But as CEO, he's in charge of all sorts of stuff where a subtle bias could be expressed, and there's no longer an executive above him who could hold him accountable.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#952

Post by notdonspaulding » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 3:31 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #740

gfodor wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I support legalizing gay marriage. But two things, first, supporting prop 8 does not mean you "believe a certain group of people don't deserve to live their lives like others." It means you don't believe that the government should recognize same sex marriages as marriages. There are a large gradient of views here, and on one extreme are the bigots who hate homosexuals and on the other there are people who simply have…

Putting money behind Prop 8 helped strip a civil right from gay people. It's technically true that proves nothing about Eich's beliefs. Heck, maybe it was Eich's personal Opposite Day. But does it matter? Even the bible says, "You will know them by their fruits," meaning that it's reasonable to judge people by what they do. The pseudo-gotcha about tolerance is ridiculous, an accusation of hypocrisy based on a straw m…

Oh boy, you brought the Bible into the discussion. Brave.

> Even the bible says, "You will know them by their fruits,"

With a little more context: http://bible.com/59/mat.7.15-20.esv

For those not used to reading the Bible. "Them" in this case is referring to people who claim to be followers of Christ. A subset of those people are labelled as "false prophets", people with positions of influence in a "church" (a teacher, pastor, or other leader). The "you will know them by their fruits" bit is a way for the genuine follower of Christ to identify a "false prophet" when deciding whether or not the leader is following Christ. Namely, that there should be evidence in their lives of that following.

If you want to go way out on a limb (heh, puns) and you support same-sex marriage, you could use this text as consolation that if Brendan Eich is a "tree that bears bad fruit", he'll be going to hell.

I'm disinclined to believe that there are many here who want to really get into what the Bible says about homosexuality, but if so, I'm game.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#953

Post by bzbarsky » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 3:33 PM UTC

yuhong wrote: post #927

bzbarsky wrote: post #865

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not going to find ~1000 people who "collectively", without dissenters, support anything unless you picked those people on the basis of their support for that one thing. The public info I see has several employees not supporting Brendan as CEO, a few more not supporting the bad PR having Brendan as CEO will produce, and some more supporting him being CEO, with the vast majority of employees keeping quiet. Not l…

Personally, I am worried not only for Brendan Eich, but all future CEOs that will encounter similar problems. BTW, do you know why the Twitter account got deleted?

No idea about the twitter account thing.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#954

Post by wpietri » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 3:35 PM UTC

hackinthebochs wrote: post #829

wpietri wrote: post #749

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Untrue. If you read Judge Walker's decision against Prop 8, or the recent judgment against the Michigan Marriage Amendment, you'll see that both Prop 8 and the MMA failed because they violate the 14th Amendment's grant of equal protection: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Protection_Clause In particular, both Prop 8 and the MMA failed to meet the Rational Basis test: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_basis_revi…

I voted for gay marriage in the last election in my state, but honestly that rationale seems extremely strained. Yes, government has a legitimate interest in defining marriage as it confers certain benefits to certain people. The "rational basis" test should not be one that questions the validity of the exclusions/inclusions within the law, but rather if the government has a legitimate interest in law in question. It…

If you think that's the case, then work to appeal the 14th amendment, which grants all people, including gay and lesbian ones, equal protection before the law.

Seriously, go and read the decision on Prop 8, or the recent one on the Michigan Marriage Amendment. Both are clear and readable explanations of why gay people start out equal, and if you want to make laws against them, you have to prove that there's a rational basis for the state to do so.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#955

Post by wpietri » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 3:37 PM UTC

fakeanon wrote: post #845

wpietri wrote: post #749

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Untrue. If you read Judge Walker's decision against Prop 8, or the recent judgment against the Michigan Marriage Amendment, you'll see that both Prop 8 and the MMA failed because they violate the 14th Amendment's grant of equal protection: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Protection_Clause In particular, both Prop 8 and the MMA failed to meet the Rational Basis test: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_basis_revi…

>All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within it…

The part where gay people are treated as not as good as straight people. The state has a legitimate interest in promoting marriage. Basically, because families. If you want to exclude gay people from that, you can't just presume they're inferior. You have to demonstrate it.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#956

Post by wpietri » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 3:41 PM UTC

JasonFruit wrote: post #833

wpietri wrote: post #746

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Mozilla appointed, say, a KKK Grand Wizard to the post of CEO, that would definitely be relevant. First, because every non-white person would immediately have rational cause to fear discrimination. Second, because every anti-racist employee, partner, and donor would have incentive to reevaluate their willingness to help Mozilla along. And third, it would be an enormous PR nightmare, an unending distraction from Mo…

There's a big difference between donating $1000 to a legal political cause and being a leader in an organization known for violent and illegal activity. If someone donated $1000 to the Freedom From Religion Foundation's legal fund, would that mean they could not be the CEO of a non-profit organization that might employ religious people?

The KKK is in fact a legal political cause.

Regarding the FFR, I'd say no, because as far as I know they aren't trying to strip a civil right from somebody. But suppose we were in one of the eras of American history where Catholics were seen as deeply suspicious by Protestants. If a protestant CEO had helped strip Catholics of, say, civil recognition of Catholic marriages, then yes, I would say that Catholics could be reasonably concerned about working for him. Even if he pinkie-swore to keep his anti-papist rants entirely out of the office.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#957

Post by wpietri » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 3:47 PM UTC

oberto wrote: post #920

wpietri wrote: post #749

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Untrue. If you read Judge Walker's decision against Prop 8, or the recent judgment against the Michigan Marriage Amendment, you'll see that both Prop 8 and the MMA failed because they violate the 14th Amendment's grant of equal protection: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Protection_Clause In particular, both Prop 8 and the MMA failed to meet the Rational Basis test: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_basis_revi…

Untrue. Courts have also upheld many Prop 8-like measures in other states - see Nebraska's Initative 216, which the Eighth Circuit ruled was acceptable ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_for_Equal_Protection_v... ). So the courts disagree, and you cannot simply cherry-pick the "right" cases where the preferred side wins, to say that courts (who are always right) support you. And ultimately, the courts are decide…

As far as I know, no recent court has found that there is a rational basis for anti-gay-marriage laws. The Nebraska decision hauled up a 1972 decision, back before much of the science was in. And the entire point of Prop 8 in specific was to strip a right from gay people by amending the CA State Constitution, so I'm going to stand by my assertion that marriage redefinition is not what's going on here. Indeed, it's Prop 8 that explicitly redefined marriage here.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#958

Post by wpietri » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 3:52 PM UTC

smsm42 wrote: post #751

wpietri wrote: post #740

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putting money behind Prop 8 helped strip a civil right from gay people. It's technically true that proves nothing about Eich's beliefs. Heck, maybe it was Eich's personal Opposite Day. But does it matter? Even the bible says, "You will know them by their fruits," meaning that it's reasonable to judge people by what they do. The pseudo-gotcha about tolerance is ridiculous, an accusation of hypocrisy based on a straw m…

>>> it's reasonable for gay employees and business partners to be concerned. Unless Mozilla has entered into business of organizing gay weddings while I wasn't looking - no, it's not reasonable at all. No more than gun owner should be concerned if his CEO donated to a known anti-gun politician, or a medical marijuana user should be concerned if his business partner donated to a politician that opposes drug legalizati…

No, the basis for a reasonable fear is that he helped strip a civil right from gay people.

He has refused to speak about his views, so Mozilla employees and partners could reasonably fear that he might take other actions that harm gay people. Those need not be explicit and declared ones. Anybody who has been on the receiving end of bias knows that out-and-out bigots are rare these days; it's the subtle stuff that is more often the problem.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#959

Post by wpietri » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 3:57 PM UTC

vacri wrote: post #842

wpietri wrote: post #740

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putting money behind Prop 8 helped strip a civil right from gay people. It's technically true that proves nothing about Eich's beliefs. Heck, maybe it was Eich's personal Opposite Day. But does it matter? Even the bible says, "You will know them by their fruits," meaning that it's reasonable to judge people by what they do. The pseudo-gotcha about tolerance is ridiculous, an accusation of hypocrisy based on a straw m…

Even the bible says, "You will know them by their fruits," meaning that it's reasonable to judge people by what they do. The bible also says "Turn the other cheek", meaning that you should give people a second chance, and to treat them kindly despite their actions. The bible has a ton of stuff in it, for example during times of slavery was used as a basis for both pro- and anti- slavery arguments. Drawing on a slogan…

Eich expressed sorrow for causing pain to his colleagues. But he did not apologize for working to strip gay people of a civil right. He did not say he thought that was wrong. He did promise to be a good boy at work, which is great, but I can understand why some people find that insufficient.

Personally, I'm not trying to crucify anybody. As I wrote in a number of places, including the very post you reply to, I don't think the donation should necessarily have been a problem. We all make mistakes. But his handling of this has been terrible.

Re: Brendan Eich Steps Down as Mozilla CEO

#960

Post by wpietri » Fri, Apr 04, 2014, 4:01 PM UTC

vacri wrote: post #880

joe_the_user wrote: post #849

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bible also says "Turn the other cheek", meaning that you should give people a second chance, and to treat them kindly despite their actions. Yes, people have asked him nicely and politely to resign rather than threatening or berating him. I think it's sort of telling the way ideas like "freedom of speech" or "turn the other cheek" get abused in this particular instance. "Freedom of speech" says the state won't ab…

I don't agree with his (apparent) personal views. But he has made an expression of sorrow for hurt (it's still an apology, though it might not be as strong as you want), and he has clearly stated that the position of Mozilla won't change. Folks like wpietri ignore these things and keep on stating that one event of six years ago is all we need to know of the man. I think Eich's (apparent) position is wrong, but I also…

An expression of sorrow is not in fact an apology. It's just an expression of sorrow. What it certainly isn't is an explanation of his helping to strip gay people of a civil right. It isn't a claim that he has changed his apparent view that gay people are second-class citizens. And isn't a promise that he will no longer work against the civil rights of his employees.

I also have never stated that all we need to know is one action of six years ago, and have several times stated the opposite.