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Everyone in Seattle hates AI

jonready.com

951–960 of 1001 posts

Re: Everyone in Seattle hates AI

#951

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the epitome of the "yet you participate in society" gotcha.

No it's not. No one is forced to use ChatGPT, it got popular by itself. When millions use it voluntarily, that contradicts the 'generally negative' statement, even if there are legitimate criticisms of other aspects of AI.

Comment sections here are filled with stories of people forced to use LLMs. You are clearly not even paying attention.

Re: Everyone in Seattle hates AI

#952

I was at Microsoft until July of this year until I left for an SF-based company (not AI though). The difference between the two with regards to AI tool usage couldn’t be more different- at Microsoft, they had started penalizing you in perf if you didn’t use the AI tools, which often were under par and you didn’t have a choice in. At the new place, perf doesn’t care if you use AI or not- just what you actually deliver…

Microsoft is forcing the company to dogfood their own tools. They do this because they need the feedback so they can improve their tools, and they think these tools are a critical part of their future. Presumably your new company isn't building AI tools, so they don't care what you use. Imagine a developer in 1990s Microsoft saying "I want to use Borland C++ because it's better than the Microsoft IDE". Maybe it is, m…

Microsoft either doesn't care about feedback or doesn't have the engineering ability to act on them, otherwise Visual Studio and Microsoft Teams wouldn't be such terrible pieces of software despite tens of thousands of Microsoft employees using them daily.

Re: Everyone in Seattle hates AI

#953

I was at Microsoft until July of this year until I left for an SF-based company (not AI though). The difference between the two with regards to AI tool usage couldn’t be more different- at Microsoft, they had started penalizing you in perf if you didn’t use the AI tools, which often were under par and you didn’t have a choice in. At the new place, perf doesn’t care if you use AI or not- just what you actually deliver…

I too was at MSFT until the July layoffs. Hang around old Microsofties and you'll encounter a phrase: "The Deal." The Deal is this informal agreement: Microsoft doesn't pay amazingly but you're given the time to have work-life balance, you can be relatively assured that upper leadership gives a shit about the ICs, there's space for "... So I was thinking..." to become real "... and that's our next product" discussion…

The Deal died when Microsoft got on the layoff bandwagon in Q1 2023 for no good reason and became very aggressive with perf after that. If Microsoft is just as toxic and unstable as Meta, why not just work at Meta for double the money?

Funnily, Apple also has an unspoken "deal" (pay a bit low but treat really well) and they stuck to it even through the layoff era.

Re: Everyone in Seattle hates AI

#954

Someone wrote on HN the (IMO) main reason why people do not accept AI. AI is about centralisation of power So basically, only a few companies that hold on the large models will have all the knowledge required to do things, and will lend you your computer collecting monthly fees. Also see https://be-clippy.com/ for more arguments (like Adobe moving to cloud to teach their model on your work). For me AI is just a natur…

> AI is about centralisation of power I do not believe this is the main reason at all. The core issue is that AI is taking away, or will take away, or threatens to take away, experiences and activities that humans would WANT to do. Things that give them meaning and many of these are tied to earning money and producing value for doing just that thing. As someone said "I want AI to do my laundry and dishes so that I ca…

I don't think that's the reason either.

AI is just not that good. If it really made me more productive, why wouldn't I use it all the time? I'd get everything done before lunch and go home. Or I'd use it all day to do the work of 3 people and be on the fast track to promotions.

The problem is simply that it gets in the way. For things I know nothing about, AI is excellent. For things that I'm good at and have literally been doing for a decade+, I can just do it better and faster myself, and I'm tired of people who know nothing about my profession gaslighting me into thinking that LLMs do the same thing. And I'm really tired of people saying "oh AI is not good today, but it'll be good tomorrow so just start using them" -- fine, wake me up when it's good because I've been waiting and patiently testing every new SOTA model since 2023.

Just get the facts right, that's all I ask of tech execs. Why has AI become a religion?

Re: Everyone in Seattle hates AI

#955

I was at Microsoft until July of this year until I left for an SF-based company (not AI though). The difference between the two with regards to AI tool usage couldn’t be more different- at Microsoft, they had started penalizing you in perf if you didn’t use the AI tools, which often were under par and you didn’t have a choice in. At the new place, perf doesn’t care if you use AI or not- just what you actually deliver…

Microsoft is forcing the company to dogfood their own tools. They do this because they need the feedback so they can improve their tools, and they think these tools are a critical part of their future. Presumably your new company isn't building AI tools, so they don't care what you use. Imagine a developer in 1990s Microsoft saying "I want to use Borland C++ because it's better than the Microsoft IDE". Maybe it is, m…

Dogfooding is great and all, but if you're forcing your engineering staff to dogfood something, you should make sure you're in the same industry as your customers. I've always had a bit of respect for MSFT products in the "I'm a company with about 5 reasonable, but not stellar developers" space. Do I want to build an operating system with Visual Basic? No. Do I force C++ on our loading dock foreman who upskilled to a VB4 dev 'cause he knows the problem domain inside and out? Also no. MSFT traditionally attracted "above average" devs who had the support to work on big projects for a (comparatively) long time.

As J. R. "Bob" Dobbs once said, "I don't practice what I preach because I'm not the kind of person I'm preaching to." ( see https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/J._R._%22Bob%22_Dobbs )

Maybe the engineers complaining about dogfooding vibe-coding tools aren't the kind of developers you should have vibe-coding.

Re: Everyone in Seattle hates AI

#956
post #877
post #682

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally, I still believe that human + AI hybrids have enormous potential. [...] That was true in chess for a long time, but since at least 20 years or so, approximately anytime the human deviates from what the AI suggests, it's a mistake.

It turns out that with enough effort, "chess" can be lumped in with "arithmetic". The machines are just better at it. We're continually finding new things in that category, including things we never would have guessed. But that doesn't mean that everything is. At least right now, very little is. Even things that AI has gotten best at, like coding, are nowhere near that category yet. AI-written text and code is still…

I suspect you are comparing AI output to the best human output?

Chess bots could beat the vast majority of humans at their game long before they could beat the world champion.

Similarly, AI generated code and text and images etc are getting more and more competitive with what regular humans can produce. Especially if you take speed and cost into account.

Re: Everyone in Seattle hates AI

#957
Where does one begin with this kind of fallacy-ridden mud slinging? Appeals to both authority and majority, and guilt by location just to name the first three.

So what if "everyone in Seattle hates AI"? What gives The Author the right to simultaneously invalidate Seattle's comparatively immeasurably larger advantage in experience, qualification, and education? If even the ludicrously biased title had even the barest hint of truth to it, they've stacked the deck against themselves in credibility unless they've already mentally biased themselves to blindly dismiss anyone that doesn't mirror their own now blatant fanaticism. Which we've already established now includes all of Seattle.

So put this out on the curb with the rest of the garbage meant to inflame and divide, because on it's face it is neither reasonable nor factual.

Re: Everyone in Seattle hates AI

#958

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see it that way. Tabs, spaces, curly brace placement, Vim, Emacs, VSCode, etc are largely aesthetic choices with some marginal unproven cognitive implications. I find people mostly prefer what they are used to, and if your preference was so superior then how could so many people build fantastic software using the method you don't like? AI isn't like that. AI is a bunch of people telling me this product can do…

>AI is certainly not reliable enough for me to jeopardize the quality of my work by using it heavily. I mean this in sincerity, and not at all snarky, but - have you considered that you haven't used the tools correctly or effectively? I find that I can get what I need from chatbots (and refuse to call them AI until we have general AI just to be contrary) if I spend a couple of minutes considering constraints and bein…

All good, no snark inferred. Yes I have considered this, and I keep considering it every time I get a bad result. Sorry this response is so long.

I think I have a good idea how these things work. I have run local LLMs for a couple of years on a pair of video cards here, trying out many open weight models. I have watched the 3blue1brown ML course. I have done several LinkedIn Learning courses (which weren't that helpful, just mandatory). I understand about prompting precisely and personas (though I am not sold personas are a good idea). I understand LLMs do not "know" anything, they just generate the next most likely token. I understand LLMs are not a database with accurate retrieval. I understand "reasoning" is not actual thinking just manipulating tokens to steer a conversation in vector space. I understand LLMs are better for some tasks (summarisation, sentiment analysis, etc) than others (retrieval, math, etc). I understand they can only predict what's in their training data. I feel I have a pretty good understanding of how to get results from LLMs (or at least the ways people say you can get results).

I have had some small success with LLMs. They are reasonably good at generating sub-100 line test code when given a precise prompt, probably because that is in training data scraped from StackOverflow. I did a certification earlier this year and threw ~1000 lines of Markdown notes into Gemini and had it quiz me which was very useful revision, it only got one question wrong of the couple of hundred I had it ask me.

I'll give a specific example of a recent failure. My job is mostly troubleshooting and reading code, all of which is public open source (so accessible via LLM search tooling). I was trying to understand something where I didn't know the answer, and this was difficult code to me so I was really not confident at all in my understanding. I wrote up my thoughts with references, the normal person I ask was busy so I asked Gemini Pro. It confidently told me "yep you got it!".

I asked someone else who saw a (now obvious) flaw in my reasoning. At some point I'd switched from a hash algorithm which generates Thing A, to a hash algorithm which generates Thing B. The error was clearly visible, one of my references had "Thing B" in the commit message title, which was in my notes with the public URL, when my whole argument was about "Thing A".

This wasn't even a technical or code error, it was a text analysis and pattern matching error, which I didn't see because I was so focused on algorithms. Even Gemini, the apparent best LLM in the world which is causing "code red" at OpenAI did not pick this up, when text analysis is supposed to be one of its core functionalities.

I also have a lot of LLM-generated summarisation forced on me at work, and it's often so bad I now don't even read it. I've seen it generate text which makes no logical sense and/or which uses so many words without really saying anything at all.

I have tried LLM-based products where someone else is supposed to have done all the prompt crafting and added RAG embeddings and I can just behave like a naive user asking questions. Even when I ask these things question which I know are in the RAG, they cannot retrieve an accurate answer ~80% of the time. I have read papers which support the idea that most RAG falls apart after about ~40k words and our document set is much larger than that.

Generally I find LLMs are at the point where to evaluate the LLM response I need to either know the answer beforehand so it was pointless to ask, or I need to do all the work myself to verify the answer which doesn't improve my productivity at all.

About the only thing I find consistently useful about LLMs is writing my question down and not actually asking it, which is a form of Rubber Duck Debugging (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_duck_debugging) which I have already practiced for many years because it's so helpful.

Meanwhile trillions of dollars of VC-backed marketing assures me that these things are a huge productivity increaser and will usher in 25% unemployment because they are so good at doing every task even very smart people can do. I just don't see it.

If you have any suggestions for me I will be very willing to look into them and try them.

Re: Everyone in Seattle hates AI

#959

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you say there's at least fifty percent of people who are informed about these?

Yes. Source: My ass. Would it make their concerns less valid however if it wasn't?

You might have read that wrong.

Of course not. I think more people should be aware of this especially talking about the majority who are outside of our own bubble. If you go to a random place and interact with a random person, you will likely encounter the dominating group, and that, I think, directly corelates to what is going to happen next.

Re: Everyone in Seattle hates AI

#960

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>morality of the creation of AI tooling aside, That's a big aside >Like, they'd enjoy a song, or an image, or a book, and then suddenly when they find out it's AI suddenly they hate it. Yes, because for some people its about supporting human creation. Finding out it's part of a grift to take from said humans can be infuriating. People don't want to be a part of that.

That is part of it, but the bigger part for me is, art is an expression of human emotion. When I hear music, I am part of those artists journey, struggles. The emotion in their songs come from their first break-up, an argument they had with someone they loved. I can understand that on a profound, shared level. Way back me and my friends played a lot of starcraft. We only played cooperatively against the AI. Until one…

I am curious how your GP feels about art forgery. I can personally see my self enjoying a piece of art only to find out it was basically copied from a different artist, and then be totally put off by the experience, totally unable to enjoy that stolen piece of art ever again.
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