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How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

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Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#951

Post by throwaway290 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #379
throwaway290 wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UN data, compare numbers "arrived" and "intercepted": https://app.un2720.org/tracking are you saying un supports the war then?

Intercepted is defined as "either peacefully by hungry people or forcefully by armed actors, during transit in Gaza." Some fraction of that may be Hamas. But we have no evidence of that.

I guess we may never know.

But hey, between hungry peasants and buff hamas soldiers we do know who has the guns.

This is a truck. You are a hungry person. How do you even stop a truck? And why, if you could just... follow it to a location where it was supposed to despense stuff to you?

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#952

Post by insane_dreamer »

Gud wrote: post #946
zawaideh wrote: post #871

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Denying Palestinians their basic human rights to create an apartheid ethno state is not complex. The narrative that “it is complex therefore there is nothing to be done” is meant to paralyze people from standing up for what’s right. The solution has always been a single democratic secular state from the river to the sea. For all inhabitants of the land. Including those expelled previously.

How do you propose that should happen? Seems impossible to me.

A two-state solution is still possible, but becoming vanishingly small:

On the Palestinian side, it doesn't give them the "right of return" (to the land they were expelled from in 1948) that they frankly deserve, which is a tough pill to swallow for them. But besides some hardliners they've pretty much resigned themselves to the fact they'll never get their stolen land back (much like the Native Americans).

On the Israeli side, it's much more problematic as it would mean dismantling many or all of the settlements on the WB. This is anathema to Israel and would be heavily resisted (perhaps violently) by the settlers who were put there in the first place expressly to prevent a two-state solution. Israel deliberately violated all the agreements about settlements reached over the years in order to create a situation where it could say "we can't expect those settlers to move out". It's no coincidence that the settlers who were given the stolen land are generally the most militant of the Israelis, and many are heavily armed, by the way.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#953

Post by DrScientist »

DrScientist wrote: post #910
csomar wrote: post #900

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which is to create a greater Israel This is fantasy. Israel (or any country really) ability to expand is limited by its neighbors. Egypt, Jordan and the GCC are more powerful than the 60s and the recent UAE message of pulling of the Abraham accord is a clear signal that they have real weight in Washington. Israel cannot, in the current circumstances, expand. So I agree with your parent. What Israel currently is doi…

Right now - the evidence on the ground is that Gaza is pretty much fully occupied and largely uninhabitable. Despite agreeing to leave under the brokered peace deal, Israel are still in southern Lebanon and show no sign of leaving. The flagrant breach of the original cease fire agreement appears to have no consequences. The effective seige and annexation of the West bank appears to be gathering pace. Smotrich said ba…

Also - in terms of Egypt - the current leader came to power in a 2013 coup, and there has not been any free and fair election since ( elections yes - free and fair no ).

Jordan and Egypt are 3 and 4 behind Ukraine and Israel in terms of being the recipient of US aid.

I doubt El-sisi could remain in power for long if that aid was withdrawn - if you are kept in power by the military but can no longer afford the wages....

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#954

Post by ciconia »

DrScientist wrote: post #838
A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #591

Israel's response to Oct 7th has been a major blackpill. Their strategy was, I think, as bad as it could possibly be. In fact, it really seemed, and still seems, like no strategy at all -- they lashed out wildly and extremely destructively, without a clear picture of what the post-war Gaza Strip will look like. Hamas successfully baited Israel into a disproportionate response that killed tens of thousands, if not hun…

Sadly I think you are mistaken to paint it as an irrational Israel lashing out - that's too generous. I think it's quite the opposite - there has been a very clear, cold, calculated strategy - which is to use the conflict as an cover for doing what some in the government have always wanted to do ( and been quite open about it ) - which is to create a greater Israel - drive out all Palestinians from the river to the s…

This is spot on. This has been a recurring practice of the Israeli regime - to take advantage of a terrorist attack or some other pretext in order to take over additional territory and remove the local population. This modus operandi has been practiced since right after the partition resolution at the end of 1947 to conquer Palestinian villages, remove their inhabitants and rase the houses to the ground, and is still practiced today in the occupied territories and Gaza. Like you said, Israel's recent military campaigns in Lebanon and Syria are also examples of the same strategy.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#955

Post by jijijijij »

mrbonner wrote: post #923
jijijijij wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Starvation may also cause epigenetic and metabolic changes, which persist and are even passed to next generations. In children tissue dystrophy is particular damaging, since their bodies are still developing. Starvation is a really fucking bad thing.

In many ways, the fear of hunger is deeply ingrained within us as human beings. Our instincts continually drive us to optimize for consumption and survival. Yet, how often do we pause to reflect on how much of our daily lives revolve around thoughts of food or the pursuit of security?

I think this is pretty evident, observing your emotions when someone, a sibling loads up too much in a shared meal. If you ever tried fasting, you realize how much time we spend daily on food intake.

But let's not trivialize the issue. Most certainly, no-one here can even begin to understand starvation from experience. For starters, you would be in a total different state of mind, potentially delusional, disassociated, depressed, abulic, manic, have an altered perception of reality. During the Minnesota Starvation Experiment, participants mutilated themselves, one guy cut off three of his fingers with an axe and didn't remember why... in the rehab phase! Starvation is an holistic horror.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#956

Post by dotancohen »

ciconia wrote: post #954
DrScientist wrote: post #838

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sadly I think you are mistaken to paint it as an irrational Israel lashing out - that's too generous. I think it's quite the opposite - there has been a very clear, cold, calculated strategy - which is to use the conflict as an cover for doing what some in the government have always wanted to do ( and been quite open about it ) - which is to create a greater Israel - drive out all Palestinians from the river to the s…

This is spot on. This has been a recurring practice of the Israeli regime - to take advantage of a terrorist attack or some other pretext in order to take over additional territory and remove the local population. This modus operandi has been practiced since right after the partition resolution at the end of 1947 to conquer Palestinian villages, remove their inhabitants and rase the houses to the ground, and is still…

[flagged]

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#957

Post by BrenBarn »

ukblewis wrote: post #830
BrenBarn wrote: post #709

Earlier quoted context omitted.

International law forbids a lot of things Israel already does. If it respected international law it would withdraw to its internationally recognized borders.

Let’s your country do that first. Lead by example

I'm under no illusions that the US respects international (or even domestic!) law.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#958

Post by DrScientist »

DrScientist wrote: post #910
csomar wrote: post #900

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> which is to create a greater Israel This is fantasy. Israel (or any country really) ability to expand is limited by its neighbors. Egypt, Jordan and the GCC are more powerful than the 60s and the recent UAE message of pulling of the Abraham accord is a clear signal that they have real weight in Washington. Israel cannot, in the current circumstances, expand. So I agree with your parent. What Israel currently is doi…

Right now - the evidence on the ground is that Gaza is pretty much fully occupied and largely uninhabitable. Despite agreeing to leave under the brokered peace deal, Israel are still in southern Lebanon and show no sign of leaving. The flagrant breach of the original cease fire agreement appears to have no consequences. The effective seige and annexation of the West bank appears to be gathering pace. Smotrich said ba…

And in terms of the GCC - aren't countries like UAE allies of Israel these days?

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/uae-yemen-somalia-circle-...

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#959

Post by jjk166 »

belorn wrote: post #837
estearum wrote: post #674

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. Very very early on we knew (verifiable objective fact) that Israel used very different math on combatant:civilian casualty ratios than coalition forces in OEF and OIF. This isn't "they're waging a more intense war and accidentally killing more people" -- it is that their actual decision framework was to authorize killings with several multiples higher ratios of civilian deaths than the US authorized in th…

The US military math for calculating combatant:civilian casualty ratios was, to quote: every boy 15 and over killed in drone strikes now is automatically listed as an enemy combatant This math is why the civilian casualty numbers from US military shows almost zero deaths for drone strikes. The New York Times reported in the 29 May 2012 article Secret ‘Kill List’ Proves a Test of Obama’s Principles and Will: Mr. Obama…

By the Obama administration's counting, they killed 64 to 117 civillians in airstrikes. Independent estimates, which do not use the "any military age male" definition, put the number at 380 to 801. These higher, independent estimates still put the fraction of civillian or unknown casualties at around 15%. That is what a military that wants to avoid civilian casualties but sometimes makes mistakes looks like.

For comparison, the Israeli government claims that a mere 53% of fatalities are civilians, substantially below independent estimates.

Re: How Israeli actions caused famine in Gaza, visualized

#960

Post by boxerab »

archdang wrote: post #945
boxerab wrote: post #905

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My whole point is that there is a double standard applied to the only Jewish state vs all other countries, and I'm afraid you have given pretty weak rebuttal. Point 1: nope, the Allies provided minimal food to the Germans during the conflict. They were too busy bombing the crap out of German cities, and they didn't bother on warning the civilians first, as Israel does in Gaza. The aid came AFTER the Nazis had uncondi…

You move goalposts and mire yourself in falsehood. Point 1 empirically wrong. Of course more food was provided after guns went silent. Point 2 you sound like you agree with me and disagree with your original post. Point 3. Reveals you as a propagandist.I've demanded that Hamas releases the hostage. From your rather uninformed framing it's clear you think there's a war on all of Gaza and not just Hamas. You just read…

Well, unfortunately once again lots of opinions in your post but no evidence to back it up.It doesn't look like we will be learning anything new from you. Buh Bye.
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