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‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

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Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#951
post #943
post #924

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think “no u” is an adequate response to the BBC and Unicef being exposed as Hamas puppets

Exposed by whom? Israeli propadandists? Even if one of the photos among many represents a child with some other underlying condition apart from malnutrition, does this mean that starvation in Gaza does not exist? People getting shot dead trying to get food is also fake news? What a repulsive person you are!

It’s not one child among many - this thread has already shown you three. if you’re not following the conflict closely, you should also be aware that children from other Middle Eastern conflicts and AI are also frequently used, as well as Pallywood style films scenarios where you can occasionally see behind the scenes (you mind find #mrfafo entertaining). You can also just look at social media from Gaza to see supermarkets, dessert stores, and comments like “we have no bread so we had to eat rice” which are hardly indicative of a starving population. Meanwhile, there are actual atrocities happening in Syria and Yemen, but it’s not on the news because Jewish people are not involved.

The New York Times has just admitted the child on their cover was already ill: https://x.com/nytimespr/status/1950311365756817690?s=46

Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#952

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even peak cancel culture wasn't quite so chilling. Wait. What? Are you trying to imply this was some kind of a real thing that happened? Sarcasm on the internet doesn't always travel well, I can't tell if you're just using this fiction as a metaphor or trying to convince people it actually happened.

> Are you trying to imply this was some kind of a real thing that happened? I won't speak for GP, but it was very clearly a real thing (no "some kind of" qualifier necessary) that actually did happen. I observed it to happen. I observed it to negatively affect people I personally met and cared about. I observed the creation of entire subreddits dedicated to the application of the technique, such as r/byebyejob which…

> Wikipedia recognizes that it has happened

The main point I want to make here is the difference between what people said happened and what actually happened.

> I have been observing it for over a decade, longer than it had a name

Let's define what "it" actually is:

Someone receiving social shame/criticism with the stated intent to change behaviour.

If you look slightly more than a decade ago, it happened then also. And the decade before that. And the century before that. Pretty much as long as we have records with the appropriate level of detail, we can find examples of this.

So yes, people were publicly shamed in the last decade. They were publicly shamed the decade before that as well. There was absolutely nothing special about anything that happened "recently" other than some pundits deciding to invent a catch term and push a meme around the culture.

My issue is that the people who started this meme and pushed it the hardest, were doing so in an attempt to deflect or prevent themselves and their ideas from being criticized, and mostly they really deserved criticism.

It's certainly possible to be an "unwitting dupe" and continue to spread this meme, not knowing any better, but I'm not sure it's the most likely scenario.

As for your example, the evidence you've presented certainly makes him seem like an innocent victim of bullying him. I sympathize and wish it hadn't happened to him.

But you can't use this as some kind of statement to justify being against shame and criticism just because people use it immorally.

Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#953

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you trying to imply this was some kind of a real thing that happened? I won't speak for GP, but it was very clearly a real thing (no "some kind of" qualifier necessary) that actually did happen. I observed it to happen. I observed it to negatively affect people I personally met and cared about. I observed the creation of entire subreddits dedicated to the application of the technique, such as r/byebyejob which…

> Wikipedia recognizes that it has happened The main point I want to make here is the difference between what people said happened and what actually happened. > I have been observing it for over a decade, longer than it had a name Let's define what "it" actually is: Someone receiving social shame/criticism with the stated intent to change behaviour. If you look slightly more than a decade ago, it happened then also.…

> Someone receiving social shame/criticism with the stated intent to change behaviour.

It was not simply "social shame/criticism". People lost their jobs for doing things that simply didn't reasonably merit such a consequence. In fact, they lost jobs for things that I don't think can reasonably be considered wrongdoing at all. Not only were they targeted on social media, but in high-profile cases the media ended up grossly misrepresenting their actions.

See also e.g. James Damore. I have read what he actually wrote. The large majority of accusations that were made (and are still referred to) about what he wrote, are simply not supported by a plain textual analysis. He was accused of expressing unacceptable ideas that he objectively did not express, and he lost his job because of it.

And then, well, perhaps you remember https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681 . Attempts at cancellation occurred in both directions there. Though it's worth highlighting that the joke was not directed at anyone (including the presenter) and not even intended to be heard by Ms. Richards, or really anyone besides the guy's (male) colleague. And the guy who made the joke is, in my mind, weirdly contrite about having done nothing worse than making a puerile joke in a nominally professional space, for a social purpose. (Also, everything would have worked out just fine if Ms. Richards had kept the story off social media and followed the procedure that had been outlined in the newly added Code of Conduct that was specifically provided to pacify people like Ms. Richards who had been unsatisfied with the atmosphere of the convention in previous years.)

> My issue is that the people who started this meme and pushed it the hardest, were doing so in an attempt to deflect or prevent themselves and their ideas from being criticized, and mostly they really deserved criticism.

Disagree, in the strongest possible terms, based on what I've actually seen play out in practice. When I saw these things happening on social media, and looked into the evidence, in the large majority of cases I found that the actions were blameless and the criticism ridiculous.

> It's certainly possible to be an "unwitting dupe" and continue to spread this meme, not knowing any better

To "not know better", I would have to be wrong.

I know that I am not wrong because there was an extended period of my life when I would spend hours a day examining the evidence. Cases like the one you find sympathetic were the norm, not the exception.

I don't remember more than a few cases because in large part I have tried to move on from that phase of my life. But I find it frankly insulting to be told that my personal experiences were not as I actually experienced them, and condescending to be described as "possibly an unwitting dupe" in a way that implies that this is supposed to be the charitable take.

Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#954

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Israel left Gaza a long time ago So who are those people with guns in between Egypt and Gaza for the past decades? Or blocking Gazan fisherman from fishing for decades? The Zionists leave a settlement in northern Gaza and call that "leaving Gaza". The Zionists brought this on themselves when they decided to take over Gaza in 1967. 33 of the victims of the Zionist aggressions in 1967 were those brave US Navy sailors…

To anyone reading this, I recommend a 224-page book on the topic: On Palestine by Noam Chomsky, Ilan Pappé, and Frank Barat (Editor) Goodreads Rating: 4.27, 11,732 ratings, 1,588 reviews Operation Protective Edge, Israel's most recent assault on Gaza, left thousands of Palestinians dead and cleared the way for another Israeli land grab. The need to stand in solidarity with Palestinians has never been greater. First p…

I just dont understand what chomsky's solution is. The palestinians have proven themselves to be just as bad as the israelis, or at least close. Giving them complete sovereignty would end with israel invading them again in all likelihood when they continue to lob rockets at tel aviv. How is that better? Just seems so clear to me that both two and one state solutions are off the table so Im not really sure where things can go.

Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#955

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel's response was obvious as soon as the attack happened. "Oh, looks like they've got that excuse they've been wanting."

It's hard to describe to people who don't have family there, but this exactly. The goal is similar to American "manifest destiny". They want to, through whatever means necessary, displace (at best) the existing Palestinian population and take their land.

Israel wants the west bank and golan heights. Gaza is worthless, no one wants it. Israel tried to pay egypt to take it and egypt refused.

Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#956
post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why did Israel unilaterally withdrew its military forces from Gaza and dismantled its settlements in 2005? It gave them what they wanted, and look what it got in return. Murderous terrorism.

Why was there a permanent military occupation of Gaza before 2005?

Because the gazans kept starting then losing wars against israel and getting occupied is what happens when you lose wars?

Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#957
post #339

I see an increasing number of politicians taking the position: "I supported Israel's government's actions when they first attacked, given the goals of destroying Hamas' leadership and freeing hostages, but now that it has turned into a brutal siege with mass civilian casualties on a horrific scale, I'm strongly against their actions." E.g. Macron, Angus King, and many people I know personally. And I think we need to…

One could certainly argue about methods, but on October 8th, what options did Israel have except invasion of Gaza?

Beef up border security and fully embrace gaza as a prison camp. Oct 7th never would have happened if Israel didnt have a massive security fuck up

Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#958
post #936
post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in the same camp tbh. I think Israel should not be putting all of Gaza under siege. It's not moral. This will also not work because the Hamas doesn't care about Gazans. It's also not helping Israel (other than some internal politics between Netanyahu and his right wing extremists). Totally agree on people need to be able to change their minds based on new data and as the situation changes. I'm personally constant…

> Technically from an international law perspective a siege is legal as long as civilians have a chance to leave. Israel can legally lay siege to Gaza city and the northern Gaza strip as long as it allows civilians to move south. Yeah no, that's wrong on multiple levels. It's not legal if there is no intention to ever let the civilians return - then you have forced displacement and ethnic cleansing. But even just ass…

Israel has ordered civilians to leave northern gaza: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c299pl8j8w7o

Most of the combat is happening there as well.

Israel is operating three food distribution centers in the southern part of the strip but only one in the north.

"The IDF has been directing civilians towards the “expanded humanitarian area” in al-Mawasi, a narrow coastal strip of agricultural land that was first designated as a “humanitarian zone” in October.

The expanded zone now measures 60 sq km.

The IDF said the area includes “field hospitals, tents and increased amounts of food, water, medication and additional supplies”.

A satellite image captured on 8 May shows what appears to be a new field hospital which has been constructed in Deir al-Balah."

Clearly life in the "humanitarian zone" sucks. But a lot less than in northern Gaza. Despite the often repeated mantra that "nowhere is safe in Gaza" that designated humanitarian zone is significantly safer (and there's data that shows that).

The IDF is not laying siege to the entire strip. It's not even laying siege to Northern Gaza. It's air dropping food in northern Gaza (following pressure - but still). There are three food distribution centers in southern Gaza (and I think they've also seen less violence but I'm not sure). In the south there are armed Palestinian factions that are collaborating with Israel.

Anyways, I'm appointing you to the general in charge of the war from the Israeli side. Your goal is to return the hostage and defeat Hamas. I'm interested in what your plan looks like.

Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#959

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After 9/11, the US invaded 2 countries, one of which wasn't even involved. And honestly, if it had been my daughter raped and killed at a music festival, I'd have done worse.

Ok, by this logic you're justifying whatever Hamas did, since many, many daughters of Palestinians and Gazans have been killed (and in some cases, raped) by Israel and Israeli soldiers for decades. And by the same proportion, what would be the justified reaction of Palestinians to Israel now if they had the means? Complete nuclear annihilation?

Oct 7th wasnt justified because there was no way it could work. It was 100% doomed to make the lives worse for everyone in gaza. If it had a chance of working it would be justified. Alls fair in love and war after all, but just terrorism against an enemy as resolute as israel isnt war, its suicide. Palestine has every right to attack israel, their problem is that they cant.

Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#960
post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in the same camp tbh. I think Israel should not be putting all of Gaza under siege. It's not moral. This will also not work because the Hamas doesn't care about Gazans. It's also not helping Israel (other than some internal politics between Netanyahu and his right wing extremists). Totally agree on people need to be able to change their minds based on new data and as the situation changes. I'm personally constant…

You are framing it as if the problem is Hamas and the existence of Hamas. Isn't the existence of Hamas only strengthened by the war, by the actions of Israel ? I would argue that the October 7 attack was highly beneficial for the expansionist plans of Israel. Highly beneficial for Netanyahu, who now can stay in power under martial law instead of fearing prosecution for his previous crimes. Hamas will not magically ce…

I think the argument that the use of violence to defeat an enemy only serves to create more enemy doesn't hold water. There are plenty of historical examples where brute force was used to bring an enemy to submission and that was more or less the end. We can go WW-II or we can look at more recent examples like Al Qaeda or ISIS or Chechnya. There are many more.

No argument that the extreme right in Israel benefited from the Oct 7th attack. So far anyways. What exactly that means in terms of "expansion" remains to be seen. Isn't annexing the west bank and giving Palestinians Israeli citizenship the real solution anyways? Modulo trying to "convince" them to leave that's more or less the plan of the Israeli right.

There was plenty of hate towards Israel before Oct 7th. The hate that manifested in Oct 7th was more or less unprecedented. I can't say there is more hate now. Check out some Gaza school textbooks from before Oct 7th. They raise their kids on hate (in UN funded schools).

I also can't predict where things go from here. I think the shift that happened in Israel on Oct 7th is that Israel should not try to control or predict the intent of their enemies. Israel needs to take away the capacity of those opponents to attack Israel. You can see this in Lebanon where Israel is still hitting Hezbollah wherever they can. In the past Israel would worry about retaliation, now Israel is more worried about capabilities and is willing to deter retaliation through use of more force. Deterrence + removing capabilities.

In Lebanon you could argue Lebanese would object to Israel bombing their country but some are happy that Hezbollah is getting decimated. The Palestinian authority and some Palestinians are happy that Israel is going after Hamas and PIJ militants aggressively in the west bank.

Gaza is a very different story but they were also terrorized by Hamas. What things look like after the war - who knows. Hard to even say when this war ends and what that looks like. I would like to hope there is some better lives for everyone and peace but that seems very unrealistic. The western countries talking about a two state solution are smoking some good stuff.

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