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Elon Musk sues Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, and OpenAI [pdf]

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Re: Elon Musk sues Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, and OpenAI [pdf]

#951

Post by ramblerman »

belter wrote: post #933
troupe wrote: post #438

If OpenAI became a non-profit with this in its charter: “resulting technology will benefit the public and the corporation will seek to open source technology for the public benefit when applicable. The corporation is not organized for the private gain of any person" I don't think it is going to be hard to show that they are doing something very different than what they said they were going to do.

Taking into account, the reported reason Elon Musk departed from the project, is because he wanted OpenAI to merge with Tesla, and he would take complete control of the project, this lawsuit smells of hypocrisy. "The secret history of Elon Musk, Sam Altman, and OpenAI" - https://www.semafor.com/article/03/24/2023/the-secret-histor... But that was to be expected, from the guy who forced his employees to go work with C…

You made exactly zero arguments based on the lawsuit itself. And just went after musks character.

The law doesn’t work that way. It’s not as simple as people I like should win and people I don’t should lose.

The fact you provided references and links implies you actually believe you are making a coherent case

Re: Elon Musk sues Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, and OpenAI [pdf]

#952

Post by tim333 »

ethbr1 wrote: post #846
romwell wrote: post #844

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Surely GPT-4 would fail some exams Some? It does hilariously badly on basic math. With confidence, though.

> hilariously badly on basic math. With confidence, though How does it do on the GMAT? Sounds like a good candidate for an MBA program.

Scored 680 / 800 in this try in March 23 https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/today-i-put-chatgpt-4-test-ha...

Update GTP-4 turbo is now up to about 770 beating most humans https://twitter.com/airesearchtools/status/17569731696325880...

Re: Elon Musk sues Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, and OpenAI [pdf]

#953

Post by SilasX »

dang wrote: post #129
SilasX wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes I wish you'd prune the users (at least from submission privileges) who can't be bothered to search first, which is how you get these n-fold submissions.

That's impossible. We'd have to prune human nature.

Sorry, I'm confused. Is there some clever joke I'm missing here? And is there a reason you don't make that clever joke or objection to any other preference for how HN is moderated?

Re: Elon Musk sues Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, and OpenAI [pdf]

#954

Post by belter »

ramblerman wrote: post #951
belter wrote: post #933

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taking into account, the reported reason Elon Musk departed from the project, is because he wanted OpenAI to merge with Tesla, and he would take complete control of the project, this lawsuit smells of hypocrisy. "The secret history of Elon Musk, Sam Altman, and OpenAI" - https://www.semafor.com/article/03/24/2023/the-secret-histor... But that was to be expected, from the guy who forced his employees to go work with C…

You made exactly zero arguments based on the lawsuit itself. And just went after musks character. The law doesn’t work that way. It’s not as simple as people I like should win and people I don’t should lose. The fact you provided references and links implies you actually believe you are making a coherent case

You are correct that I did not address the merits of the lawsuit. Reason is because I dont care about and also because a lawsuit means legal discovery, something OpenAI and Microsoft can't afford. The lawsuit can have merit but will be settled out of court...Mark my comment... :-)

Billionaires motives, their weird obsession of saving the world, and damaged psyche's that drive a never ending need, for absurd accumulation of health, have a direct impact on my daily life, and are therefore more interesting.

Re: Elon Musk sues Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, and OpenAI [pdf]

#955

Post by HarHarVeryFunny »

stubish wrote: post #821
troupe wrote: post #438

If OpenAI became a non-profit with this in its charter: “resulting technology will benefit the public and the corporation will seek to open source technology for the public benefit when applicable. The corporation is not organized for the private gain of any person" I don't think it is going to be hard to show that they are doing something very different than what they said they were going to do.

So much of the discussion here is about being a non-profit, but per your quote I think the key is open source. Here we have people investing in an open source company, and the company never opened their source. Rather than open source technology everyone could profit from, they kept everything closed and sold exclusive access. I think it is going to be hard for OpenAI to defend their behavior, and a huge amount of da…

> huge amount of damages to be claimed for all the money investors had to spend catching up

Huh? There's no secret to building these LLM-based "AI"s - they all use the same "transformer" architecture that was published by Google. You can find step-by-step YouTube tutorials on how to build one yourself if you want to.

All that OpenAI did was build a series of progressively larger transformers, trained on progressively larger training sets, and document how the capabilities expanded as you scaled them up. Anyone paying attention could have done the same at any stage if they wanted to.

The expense of recreating what OpenAI have built isn't in having to recreate some secret architecture that OpenAI have kept secret. The expense is in obtaining the training data and training the model.

Re: Elon Musk sues Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, and OpenAI [pdf]

#956

Post by HarHarVeryFunny »

1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote: post #833
troupe wrote: post #438

If OpenAI became a non-profit with this in its charter: “resulting technology will benefit the public and the corporation will seek to open source technology for the public benefit when applicable. The corporation is not organized for the private gain of any person" I don't think it is going to be hard to show that they are doing something very different than what they said they were going to do.

What about damages. How difficult to show. In case anyone is confused I am referring to 126, 132 and 135. Not 127. "126. As a direct and proximate result of Defendants breaches, Plaintiff has suffered damages in an amount that is presently unknown, but that substantially exceeds this Courts jurisdictional minimum of $35,000, and, if necessary, will be proven at trial. 127. Plaintiff also seeks and is entitled to spec…

> The end result of this suit, if it is not dismissed, may be nothing more than OpenAI settling with the plaintiffs for an amount equal to the plaintiffs' investments.

Musk's money kept the lights on during a time when OpenAI didn't do much more than get a computer to play Dota. If he wants the proceeds of what his money bought, then they should write him a check for $0, or ship him a garbage can full of the taco wrappers eaten by the developers during that time period.

Re: Elon Musk sues Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, and OpenAI [pdf]

#957

Post by HarHarVeryFunny »

loceng wrote: post #945
bwilliams18 wrote: post #836

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elon's asking for specific performance (IE they uphold the agreement) not damages.

OpenAI, even the name was his suggestion from what I remember reading, wouldn't exist without him - other investors may not have invested either without his money essentially vouching for the organization, and also its primary AI developer likely wouldn't have joined the OpenAI either if it wasn't for AI; who I believe is the one who recently announced they're leaving OpenAI, and I'd speculate they're joining Elon's…

Hard to say. Certainly his name would have been a draw, but you've also got Altman, head of YC as a founder, not to mention his buddy Peter Thiel.

Musk's influence in attracting/retaining talent is rather a mixed bag given that he poached Karpathy for Tesla around the same time he left.

I think the person you're thinking of who Musk helped recruit for OpenAI is Ilya Sutskever. The person who just left, after a second brief stint at OpenAI, is Karpathy who for time being seems content on going back to his roots as an educator.

Re: Elon Musk sues Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, and OpenAI [pdf]

#958

Post by knotthebest »

gigglesupstairs wrote: post #901
1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote: post #839

"In March 2023, OpenAI released its most powerful language model yet, GPT-4. GPT-4 is not just capable of reasoning. It is better at reasoning than average humans. It scored in the 90th percentile on the Uniform Bar Exam for lawyers. It scored in the 99th percentile on the GRE Verbal Assessment. It even scored a 77% on the Advanced Sommelier examination." One could argue a common characteristic of the above exams is…

> One could argue a common characteristic of the above exams is that they each test memory, and, as such, one could argue that GPT-4's above-average performance is not necessarily evidence of "reasoning". That is, GPT-4 has no "understanding" but it has formidable reading speed and retention (memory). I don’t think they will make this argument since it will heavily negate their (expected) argument that they’re not op…

I’m not so sure of this. The fear generally isn’t that the model itself is dangerous, more so that how it is used by someone might be.

Re: Elon Musk sues Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, and OpenAI [pdf]

#959

Post by xcv123 »

buzzin__ wrote: post #905
xcv123 wrote: post #791

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whatever his reason may be The reason is that he was ruthlessly scammed by the sociopath CEO Sam Altman. "Mr. Musk founded and funded OpenAI, Inc. with Mr. Altman and Mr. Brockman in exchange for and relying on the Founding Agreement to ensure that AGI would benefit humanity, not for-profit corporations. As events turned out in 2023, his contributions to OpenAI, Inc. have been twisted to benefit the Defendants and…

It's weird that you would say Altman is a sociopath without also mentioning that Musk is one as well. Musk is also a narcissist and you can't be one without also being a sociopath. Are you perhaps a member of the Musk cult of personality? Just trying to create informational balance.

I have seen no evidence that Elon Musk is a sociopath. I prefer to base such decisions on logic and evidence. You have not provided evidence that he is a sociopath. So what "informational balance" are you providing exactly?

Sam Altman asked Elon Musk to cofound OpenAI as a non-profit entity, and fund it with tens of millions of dollars, with the understanding that the research will be open to the public (hence "Open" AI). After taking tens of millions of dollars from Musk, Sam Altman then turned around and sold out to Microsoft, and effectively changed OpenAI to a for-profit entity which only serves to financially benefit Microsoft shareholders and Sam Altman himself.

Elon Musk is now requesting that OpenAI disclose GPT-4 and their subsequent models inner workings to the public, for the benefit of humanity, in accordance with the OpenAI mission statement. How does this make Elon Musk a sociopath? Please explain.

> Musk is also a narcissist and you can't be one without also being a sociopath.

This is unscientific drivel. According to the DSM, Narcissism and Antisocial Personality Disorder (APD) are separate disorders within the Cluster B group. A person can have one or the other, or both.

What exact criteria did you use to diagnose Musk with Narcissism and APD?

I can't say that Sam Altman truly has APD, but he certainly matches this criteria from my perspective:

"deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure"

I believe what he did with OpenAI is a blatant and obvious con job, for his own personal gain.

Re: Elon Musk sues Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, and OpenAI [pdf]

#960

Post by reducesuffering »

chasd00 wrote: post #663
archagon wrote: post #633

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I shudder at a world where only corporations had nukes.

nuclear weapons is a ridiculous comparison and only furthers the gas lighting of society. At the barest of bare minimums, AI might, possibly, theoretically, perhaps pose a threat to established power structures (like any disruptive technology does). However, a nuclear weapon definitely destroys physical objects within its effective range. Relating the two is ridiculous.

It's not a ridiculous comparison. This thread involves Sam Altman and Elon Musk, right?

Sam Altman:"Development of superhuman machine intelligence is probably the greatest threat to the continued existence of humanity."

In the essay "Why You Should Fear Machine Intelligence" https://blog.samaltman.com/machine-intelligence-part-1

So, more than nukes then...

Elon Musk: "There’s a strong probability that it [AGI] will make life much better and that we’ll have an age of abundance. And there’s some chance that it goes wrong and destroys humanity."

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