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A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

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Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#951

Post by [deleted] »

da_big_ghey wrote: post #503
objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

> I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster. I am such a person. For most workers, you're right that a union will probably increase wages. But for me, it will do the opposite. In most jobs I have worked, I ended up paid significantly more than counterparts in the same job. I usually was better at my job and put in…

[deleted]

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#952

Post by slumpt_ »

ransom1538 wrote: post #395
objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

unintended consequences 1. Fat cats. What are the due fees? %1 now?, later then? %5 of gross annually? 200 people * 300k year * %5 of salary = 3 million. They will use this on fancy dinners with Google execs? Or spend it in "wrongful terminations" law suites with google for years? What happens when 50x more join. 2. Who runs it? Will it be a 10 year long president? What is her union salary? A non-google person? Will…

Please read a history book. This is horrendously ill-informed based on the history of what collective action has accomplished in the US.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#954

Post by Rebelgecko »

bitcharmer wrote: post #55
fovc wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One positive byproduct is that union membership is a quality signal for both employers and employees. I.e., as a producer, I know non-union candidates will be less experienced; as an employee I know a movie using non union labor is not going to run as smoothly. Could be good for the startup market if this additional data point becomes reliable

Genuine question as I don't know that industry at all. How does being a member of a union imply more experience?

At least for film production unions, there's a lot of gatekeeping for membership. It's not like a random camera operator can decide to sign up on their own.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#955

Post by Rebelgecko »

Apocryphon wrote: post #771
jjcon wrote: post #768

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So like half what Google pays? How much does their Union take?

A fairer comparison is probably to other aerospace companies and defense contractors.

I worked at a different defense contractor/research place with a union and was making a decent chunk of change more than the numbers above without much seniority (not FAANG money, but enough to buy a place in a high COL area). IMO my company's union also did a better job protecting retirement benefits than Boeing's.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#956

Post by minimuffins »

hedora wrote: post #947
minimuffins wrote: post #788

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are all real problems, especially in a lot of today's older unions that have been completely hollowed out and have become a kind of do-nothing "labor aristocracy." They don't function as democratic institutions serving laborers' interests anymore, only their own narrow, elite, institutional needs--often institutional self-preservation at the expense of their members' interests. They're decrepit, corrupt dinosau…

The CWA is a fairly old union, right? They’re hoping to join it.

Yeah, it's a tradeoff they have to make. A lot of "knowledge worker" unions decide to do this, hoping it's worth it for the institutional support they'll get. Some grad student unions were formed under United Auto Workers in recent years, oddly enough. I'm not an organizer, and I don't really have an informed opinion about whether it's worth it.

One hopes that these old unions could be revived with a bunch of new membership. What I described above is how they are now, not how they have to be.

Worth noting also that even unions with totally screwed up leadership often have passionate and talented organizers with a lot of experience and institutional know-how at the lower levels, just like tech companies.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#957

Post by adtac »

8note wrote: post #845
antisoeu wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in Germany unions (in tech) will for example make sure that older employees can't be fired, so the younger employees will be fired instead. So I don't think you can simply claim they are beneficial for everybody.

Do younger employees pay less in Union dues as a result?

it's usually a percentage of your income, so indirectly yes

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#958

Post by da_big_ghey »

heavyset_go wrote: post #889
da_big_ghey wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster. I am such a person. For most workers, you're right that a union will probably increase wages. But for me, it will do the opposite. In most jobs I have worked, I ended up paid significantly more than counterparts in the same job. I usually was better at my job and put in…

White collar unionized workers have higher compensation than their non-union counterparts. They also have better benefits and more time off. But the single most important thing, to me, is that white collar union members report higher life satisfaction than their non-union peers. > I never liked the mandatory nature of unions, either. No one is forcing you to work a union job.

On average, sure, unionized workers may make more; I explicitly acknowledged that. But it also reduces the higher wages the top performers are paid. I've generally been in that group.

> No one is forcing you to work a union job.

They kind of are. While this one is a minority union, those are usually steps towards mandatory ones. I shouldn't be forced to join a union because enough of my coworkers voted on it; they have no say in a private agreement between me and my employer.

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#959

Post by AshWolfy »

finnthehuman wrote: post #98
objclxt wrote: post #38

When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions, seemingly based in stereotypes about what unions are for and who they serve. People often seem to think of unions as being purely blue-collar operations, and this just isn't true. For example, I've had people tell me that they don't support unions in tech because they'll be "paid less", or less competent engineers will be promoted faster.…

>When I talk to colleagues in tech about unions I hear a lot of misconceptions Because everyone talking about unionization refuses to get into the nitty gritty of what I might gain, what I might lose, and the structural changes to the workplaces that are inherent with unionization. And if/when I/others start spitballing about what those might be we're treated like dolts uneducated on organized labor, and should just…

Nobody can tell you what a contract will look like because unions are democratic, all of us decide what we want, then send negotiators to get what we want, then we approve the result

Thats like saying if democracy is so good, why wont anyone tell me what the result of the election will be

Re: A group of Google workers have announced plans to unionize

#960

Post by AshWolfy »

esoterica wrote: post #682
thesuitonym wrote: post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>tell me what the terms of the contract will be and I'll decide for myself. Nobody can tell you what the contract will be because the contract won't be drawn up until the union exists and has enough members to bargain. What you DO know is the current contract you have. You DO know that you have virtually no say in what is in that contract, "accept it or leave," is not having a say in that contract. You DO know that a…

> You DO know that you have virtually no say in what is in that contract, "accept it or leave," is not having a say in that contract. Not only is "accept it or leave it" very much a form of "having a say" in your work parameters, it's a much more powerful way of exerting your preferences than voting. If 100,000 people are voting on a contract your 1/100,000th share of the influence functionally rounds to zero. The co…

Most of these problems are industry wide, poor work life balance is the rule in tech jobs, and jobs that are better have such high competition almost nobody will actually be able to shop around.

Flexibility can be built into union contacts, and its unlikely each of the 100,000 people will have entirely different and opposed interested to you

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