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Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

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Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#951

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On the ad-blocking side, Android fans are blowing this out of proportion. First of all, Safari’s content blockers, while far less capable than uBO, are pretty adequate for the time being. In my experience, iOS Safari + Wipr is fine. Also, and this point is underrated, content blockers work in most app web views. For example Twitter’s or Gmail’s. Not all web views of course. Facebook for example chooses to use a web v…

> From simple things, like pinching to zoom, with the fonts getting all blurry. This is an aside to your conversation, but just wanted say we're currently rolling out webrender to more devices in the new version of Firefox for android, and it fixes the blurriness when zooming.

That's awesome to hear, thanks!

Also I like the new version on Android, hopefully it will reach feature with the older version.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#952

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As a user, I don't want more app stores all over my phone. I don't want more app stores all over my game console or PC either. Compare it to the Windows gaming world, where if you want game 1, you need to go to store A, if you want game 2, you need to install store B, if you want game 3, you need to install store C. Yuck! What end user wants that hassle?

But it's better overall for a user because it allows competition for the marketplace. Do you only shop at Walmart because it's convenient?

Like exclusives on Epicgames store? Like that competition?

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#953

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That's a pretty silly argument considering Steam launched with a 30% fee a full 5 years before the App Store was even a thing.

I can also buy games from other places than Steam. I cannot install iPhone apps I download online. That little detail changes the situation entirely. I don't care what Apple charges if I can install a binary without dealing with their store.

Apple's counter argument is that it's possible to sideload apps.

You just have to use a mac to do it and need to reinstall them every 7 days.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#954

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70% of Spotify's revenue goes to rights holders. That's not ripping off artists. Streaming royalties have been the largest segment of music rights holder revenue for several years. The record labels negotiated these deals and had all of the power. Also, all music streaming services have effectively the same deals. Spotify does not have preferential treatment. Artists can distribute their music without Spotify. Spotif…

Spotify is complicated because the big record companies are also big shareholders. They have a conflict of interest. Also 70% doesn't mean anything without actual numbers. If they lowered their subscription to $1 / month and gave 80% to rights holders it wouldn't be an improvement. I'd be more interested if they reported how many plays per month it takes to earn as much as you would in a minimum wage job. Edit: I was…

My understanding is that rights holders are paid by the percentage of all plays, not per play.

Deezer is trying to fix this, but it requires the major labels to agree to the change. Deezer's user-centric payment system would apportion royalties based on an individual customer's play percentage instead of the total customer base's percentage. So if you only listen to 5 artists, all of your subscription's royalties would go to those 5 artists.

More info on UCPS at https://www.rollingstone.com/pro/news/deezer-launches-initia... and https://www.deezer.com/ucps

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#955
post #935
post #859

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Apple does not have a “monopoly on iPhone hardware and iOS”. This is a fundamental misunderstand of the term. You cannot have a monopoly on your own product, because a monopoly is a state of a market and your own product is not a market. Understanding this is fundamental to the actual legal issue at hand. First, the argument against Apple is not that they are bundling an App Store with their iPhone. The argument agai…

"They chose that route for a myriad of very significant reasons relating to user experience, usability, privacy, security, safety, brand & reputation, performance, and accountability." This is incredibly naive. They chose it to be this way for the purposes of profit . Android is testament to the fact that high degree of quality and security and consistency can be maintained without any of the most iOS aggressive rest…

> This is incredibly naive.

Maybe you stopped reading. I also said they did it for financial reasons.

To say they did it purely for profit is overly reductionist.

But in the sense that they believe the policies they have put in place make their device superior in the market, and make the App Store generate more dollars per user (both for Apple and for Developers), then you could say that profit is always an underlying motive. As it is and as it should be in capitalism.

Whether you believe Android is great or not is irrelevant. I personally think you are glossing over some very high profile failings and failures of Android, but it’s totally besides the point. Similarly totally irrelevant whether they could have made different technical and policy choices over the last 12 years which may or may not have obtained the same or similar outcomes.

Apple does not owe anyone the right to distribute their Apps on Apple’s own store, no more than any product can demand placement on their own terms in any store. Only if Apple holds a monopoly on smartphones could Apple’s right to enforce their own policies on their own phone be limited. That’s why the term monopoly is important.

The existence and relative quality of the Android universe renders disagreements over Apple App Store policy beyond the reach of an anti-trust act.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#956
post #863
post #839

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To summarize the conversation so far: burlesona extended an analogy by suggesting that console software lock-in is a feature that gamers seek out, and for those gamers that don't like it, there is a more than acceptable option that other gamers seek out. Their argument is that the principles that would apply with gaming consoles should also in theory also apply with app-based mobile phones. You countered that it was…

You misread my comment. I wasn't advocating for, or against, Apple or any other company. My comment applied to the entire smartphone market, and how it was different from the entire console market. Saying that because a certain model (seemingly) works in consoles, that it should also work in phones is lazy thinking. Saying "the iPhone is a console, end of story" is a ridiculous analogy. It's also an analogy that excl…

> Try asking anyone not in the top 5% of the worlds wealth if a gaming console and a smart phone are of comparable importance. Then, ask them if smartphones and consoles should be afforded similar consideration and protections by their society.

You're not directly addressing the argument. Literally nobody here suggested that they are of comparable importance. Everyone concedes that smartphones are far more "important" than gaming consoles. The argument is that the "importance" of smartphones today is an ephemeral condition. You yourself agreed that basing policy on ephemeral trends is probably not a good idea, so the best way for you to stay internally consistent is to prove that this is somehow not an ephemeral norm.

> The rest of your argument, seems to be that "the market will sort it out" and any interference with the space will stifle growth and innovation. Maybe. But I'm sorry, that's not a universal "first principle", that's an opinion. My opinion is that smart legislation could actually accelerate growth and innovation while at the same time enhancing user freedoms and protections. But that's getting off track and wasn't the point I was making:

No, the central argument is that the current reality has only been true for our original choice. You might have a good point to make if consumers originally expected to have some level of control over their Apple phones, but people explicitly signed up for the opposite of that — we've always known that the walled garden was a part of the deal. You might also have a good point to make here if there was no alternative in the market, but just like PC's and Consoles, there is a more than acceptable alternative that's conveniently also cheaper and more within reach for the "non-5%". The entirety of the worlds knowledge, the ability to communicate with anyone in the world, and the deeply intimate thoughts / ideas are equally accessible on both platforms, and switching between the two is fairly straightforward considering most major services are provided on both platforms, and the credentials you would use to access your bank account or your medical records or your email work on both types of apps.

> Equating smartphones with gaming consoles is as intellectually lazy as it is troubling.

Again, you're really not addressing the central argument, and you're relying on insults to make your point. The central argument is that while there is undeniably an "importance gap" between the two, we ought to apply the same principles because the gap is ephemeral. If you really believe that the current norms are NOT ephemeral, make that case, you might even have a good point. But you don't need to attack the people making the argument, which undermines your case (and yes, calling an argument "lazy" and "ridiculous" and "troubling" is just a thinly veiled attack on the person).

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#957

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"Standard Oil built their ecosystem and set their rules." "AT&T built their ecosystem and set their rules."

From Wikipedia's entry on Standard Oil [0]: > Standard Oil dominated the oil products market initially through horizontal integration in the refining sector, then, in later years vertical integration; the company was an innovator in the development of the business trust. Horizontal then vertical integration is exactly what Epic is doing, by first getting onto a bunch of platforms and app stores, then creating their o…

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Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#958
post #913

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> The same applies for if the government said “you have a right to install apps of your choice”. I don't like the idea that the government can force you to build things you don't want to build. If I don't want to build a general purpose computing device, why should the government be able to force me to? There's a compelling argument for requiring building in handicapped-accessible features, but that is relevant to th…

> I don't like the idea that the government can force you to build things you don't want to build. Oh but you do. Otherwise you'd choose to live in a country without a food code or electrical code or engineering standards for roads and bridges.

Public Heath and safety standards are irrelevant to product features, which is what we're taking about here.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#959

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The same applies for if the government said “you have a right to install apps of your choice”. I don't like the idea that the government can force you to build things you don't want to build. If I don't want to build a general purpose computing device, why should the government be able to force me to? There's a compelling argument for requiring building in handicapped-accessible features, but that is relevant to th…

Our justice system is good at drawing squiggly lines. It’s luckily based on intent and outcome and not exact wording. There’s no reason the law couldn’t carve out a class of devices as “general purpose computing devices” which would exclude fine homemade / artisanal / hyper-focused kindles, gaming consoles, etc. of course these lines get moved around and tested in many ways. Much like how assault weapons are hard to…

> If unlocking general purpose computing devices drove trillions in GDP and innovation, didn’t harm anyone, and generally improved consumers lives, I don’t see why we need a direct precedent.

If this was really such a boon, wouldn't the devices where you can already do this have a huge market advantage? If so then why are we talking about forcing it on consumers and manufacturers?

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#960

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Standard Oil built their ecosystem and set their rules." "AT&T built their ecosystem and set their rules."

From Wikipedia's entry on Standard Oil [0]: > Standard Oil dominated the oil products market initially through horizontal integration in the refining sector, then, in later years vertical integration; the company was an innovator in the development of the business trust. Horizontal then vertical integration is exactly what Epic is doing, by first getting onto a bunch of platforms and app stores, then creating their o…

Congrats on discovering Wikipedia.

Notice how those two companies were broken up for abusing their positions in different ways? Weird, huh? It's almost like the issue was them abusing their positions, not how they were put together?

I'll save you some additional wikipedia searches:

Microsoft was under significant legal assault for bundling its browser with its operating system. It paid out billions of dollars and was forced to allow computer manufacturers to bundle other browsers.

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