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The EU moves to kill infinite scrolling

politico.eu

941–950 of 979 posts

Re: The EU moves to kill infinite scrolling

#941

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a lot of countries in the EU, advertising for tobaco products, prescription medication, lawyer/docts are prohibited. That ban has been working quite well for decades.

This is true, but it's worth adding that there are no blog posts about those things either, or articles, discussions, etc except in very limited niche places dedicated to talking about them. If there was a ban on 'internet advertising of anything' then it would basically kill all discussion of any products on the internet.

How have you managed to take an example of where this worked and then proceed to entirely disapply it in a wider context?

Re: The EU moves to kill infinite scrolling

#942

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What people who advertise indirectly on the internet. For example the ads around a baseball field - can that baseball game no longer be streamed? Product placement in a movie - can that movie only be in theaters and DVD, but not Netflix? Could streaming companies show previews of coming shows on their own platform? I also assume it means that sites like X could no longer charge for verified accounts.

I'm curious what the point is in calling out obvious edge cases that can be addressed by either the legislation allowing for discretion in enforcement via the FCC or other department, or having the court system directly address this factors? What's important is agreeing or disagreeing with the spirit of the law, not trying to get a HN comment to give you a bullet-proof wording.

Because as long as there is a theoretical edge case, nothing should be done, your model is flawed. That's a mentality very common amongst software engineers. In the real physical world, even tying your shoes has edge cases.

Hmm, thinking of it, it may explain the love of sandals in said community.

Re: The EU moves to kill infinite scrolling

#943

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious what the point is in calling out obvious edge cases that can be addressed by either the legislation allowing for discretion in enforcement via the FCC or other department, or having the court system directly address this factors? What's important is agreeing or disagreeing with the spirit of the law, not trying to get a HN comment to give you a bullet-proof wording.

The obvious edge cases are often the difference between a law having any teeth at all. Or the edge cases can be such a big loophole that everything fits under it.

That's what the judiciary is for. Really!

Re: The EU moves to kill infinite scrolling

#944

Banning personalized recommendation algorithms altogether would do so much good. Feeds should be the same for everyone who has the same filters and subscriptions configured.

How would that do any good? And what good exactly would it do? I like my feed being personalized to who I am. I am unique. I'm not like anyone else.

Then you can personalize it... manually, using deterministic filters. Ideally, the algorithm just wouldn't be black box anymore.

Re: The EU moves to kill infinite scrolling

#945

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, advertisers would layoff or displace their marketing teams, as the role would have no value to the company if advertising was outlawed (meanwhile, technical writers would be just fine). I'm not disputing that. I'm disputing the framing you put forth that equates advertising with technical writing. > Product documentation is also available to prospective customers so they can review it to decide whether they w…

> Indeed, advertisers would layoff or displace their marketing teams, as the role would have no value to the company if advertising was outlawed They would obviously redeploy them to drafting or working to influence whatever means exists that still allows them to get new customers. > The primary purpose of documentation is what I said: for understanding how to operate the product. The only purpose of advertising is t…

> This is like saying the primary purpose of advertising is to display media content.

No, the only purpose - and therefore the primary purpose - of advertising is to make a sale.

You are arguing economics. And while that is a valid stance, it is not the only point of view. You might even be arguing that word of mouth is advertising. That doesn't fit the definition of paying some party with an expectation of a larger return. That's the only part of advertising that needs to be addressed (e.g., banned or reformed). The part that is most harmful. Word of mouth and other means of non-exploitative ways to gain customers are completely reasonable.

You're trying to weasel your way to finding some inescapable loophole for some reason that I cannot understand. There's no need to protect predatory behavior like advertising.

> how often do you see a commercial product's documentation recommending that the customer use a competitor's product under circumstances when that would actually be to the customer's advantage?

Since you are really digging into semantics, here, I'll bite. The documentation doesn't need to explicitly say this. It implies that the product's feature set may not fit the user's needs by their very descriptions. The user will go to a competitor on their own accord when those features do not meet their needs.

> Meanwhile advertising also has secondary functions as well, like informing customers of product features they might not have been aware of, or informing them of risks or drawbacks of competing products, or providing active rather than passive notification for time-sensitive information like that a sale is happening, etc.

The products themselves do that. The company's website, brochure, or product catalog have the information. They don't need to broadcast the widest net possible with the MicroMachines guy speedrunning their feature list to fit a 60-second ad spot. In fact, ads have such space and time constraints that the pertinent information literally cannot fit the allocation. Ads can only give very brief and very high level tidbits. It's a terrible model for information dispersal.

On the other hand, infomercials are 30 or 60 minute advertisements that tend to repeat the same thing ad infinitum. There's only so much you can say about knives, sunglasses, or exercise equipment. And yet, we have QVC. But here's the thing: I don't have to watch QVC. QVC isn't embedded into every website.

Although, plenty of low effort news sites really like to pin an autoplay video to the corner of my screen when I scroll down. These are nuisances. Somebody paying someone else to force me to watch or read something in the hopes that I will make a purchase. No. Just no. There's a good reason popups have been blocked on browsers by default for 20 years. Advertising is overly aggressive, and the margins are so piss poor that publishers are effectively getting ripped off by ad revenue. It's insulting to publishers and much worse to consumers.

At least on Twitch, the largest contributors to a streamer's income are donations, subscriptions, bits, and Twitch Turbo viewers. Possibly in that order. Ads are worth practically nothing.

Shroud is one of the most highly paid streamers on Twitch/YouTube. He recently described that his YouTube ad revenue nets between $5,000-$9,000 per month [1]. This might seem like a lot, but his gross income is estimated to be up to $10 million to $12 million per year [2]. YouTube ads account for approximately between 0.5% and 1% of his income.

Smaller publishers (e.g., content creators) don't even break double digit ad revenues per month [3].

Please, stop defending advertising. It is indefensible. It's bad for everyone.

[1]: https://www.dexerto.com/youtube/shroud-leaks-youtube-revenue...

[2]: https://www.msn.com/en-in/sports/other/michael-grzesiek-s-ne...

[3]: https://www.mogul.club/blogposts/how-much-do-twitch-streamer...

Re: The EU moves to kill infinite scrolling

#946
post #889

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any compensation mechanism will become outlawed, so what are you talking about?

You can try to stop the payments, but you won’t stop the ads. I’m talking about the same reasons billionaires pay far lower tax rates than you and I. When that much money is on the line, they will find (or make) a legal way. (Anyway, it’s also time to come back from outer space; corporations own the laws and the advertising channels. Our economy, for better or worse, currently depends on advertising. Compensated adve…

By that logic any and all regulation would be pointless because people will try to circumvent the regulation.

Re: The EU moves to kill infinite scrolling

#947
post #946
post #889

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can try to stop the payments, but you won’t stop the ads. I’m talking about the same reasons billionaires pay far lower tax rates than you and I. When that much money is on the line, they will find (or make) a legal way. (Anyway, it’s also time to come back from outer space; corporations own the laws and the advertising channels. Our economy, for better or worse, currently depends on advertising. Compensated adve…

By that logic any and all regulation would be pointless because people will try to circumvent the regulation.

I don’t agree with that. I’m saying that banning advertising payments will obviously have unintended consequences and fail to achieve the actual desired goal. That happens with poorly conceived regulations all the time. I’m also suggesting that not enough people agree with your desire to ban advertising, and there isn’t a clear enough benefit to society, for this particular regulation to pass. You have a Chesterton’s Fence problem if you don’t see the reasons why advertising is so completely pervasive. You have to acknowledge that first and then propose something viable and realistic that can replace it.

Re: The EU moves to kill infinite scrolling

#948
post #917
post #797

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even though I gave an example of a huge swath of advertising that isn’t “compensated”?

Such advertising is generally not a problem. That’s the point.

Why? I completely disagree, they are the same as any other ads. But you’re still not seeing the big picture. If you ban advertising compensation, suddenly uncompensated will become the entire problem and the only category. That’s the point.

Re: The EU moves to kill infinite scrolling

#949

I have a proud European coworker trying to get their H1B... They talk about how great Europe is, how they like their 1-2 hour coffee/smoke breaks... These kind of moves give me that same vibe. But why are so many Europeans trying to move to the US? Why isn't the opposite happening? My hypothesis is that these kind of popular policies are short sighted. They are super popular, they use intuition and feeling. But maybe…

I live in Europe and my city has had a large, very noticeable uptick of American expats arriving over the last two years. Conversely, I have never known my European friends and acquaintances to be as bearish on the US as they are right now (no one I speak to has the slightest interest in moving stateside and two friends who both emigrated to the US years ago are seriously considering moving themselves and their families back to Europe)

Re: The EU moves to kill infinite scrolling

#950

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't compare 2000s social media to what it's become today. It's orders of magnitude larger today both in terms of volume of data and cultural impact. That's no revisionism. Infrastructure always costed money, but it was relatively inexpensive to develop a social network back then. Instagram had a team of 12 if I'm not mistaken before being bought. So it was easier back then to justify what was pocket change to c…

> You can't compare 2000s social media to what it's become today. It's orders of magnitude larger today both in terms of volume of data and cultural impact. Why? The available computing power and bandwidth are orders of magnitude more plentiful / cheaper than in the 2000s, too. I can't think of any technical reason why we couldn't have social in today's world media without advertising money. The main non-technical re…

I agree completely. We would benefit a lot from people dispersing into multiple competing social media solutions, but the current state of things is that if I don't join Instagram it's likely I won't have many of my contacts available.

So while infrastructure is also much cheaper than it was 10 maybe 20 years ago, and you could in theory spin up an Instagram competitor in the cheap, people use what they use, and the money printing machine needs to print money. So we need an alternative to ads, which could be just people choosing to joint a paid social network, or another business model, but to just write off ads as something you could regulate into oblivion without consequences is just naive.

I've actually wrote before in my blog against a form of political realism, and this in a sense falls into it, but we gotta be pragmatic eventually, and take into account the dynamics that feed the powers that be.

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