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OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

ft.com

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Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#941

Post by oakpond »

curt15 wrote: post #936
PeterStuer wrote: post #911

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically Deepseek is doing what Open AI originally pledged to do. Making the model open and free is a gift to humanity. Look at the whole AI revolution that Meta and others have bootstrapped by opening their models. Meanwhile OpenAI/Microsoft, Antropic, Google and the rest are just trying to look after number 1 while trying to regulatory capture an AI for me but not for thee outcome of full control.

Is there anything still "open" about OpenAI these days?

You don't understand, "open" stands for "open your wallet."

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#942

Post by sloucher »

curt15 wrote: post #936
PeterStuer wrote: post #911

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically Deepseek is doing what Open AI originally pledged to do. Making the model open and free is a gift to humanity. Look at the whole AI revolution that Meta and others have bootstrapped by opening their models. Meanwhile OpenAI/Microsoft, Antropic, Google and the rest are just trying to look after number 1 while trying to regulatory capture an AI for me but not for thee outcome of full control.

Is there anything still "open" about OpenAI these days?

The bow doors?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_Herald_of_Free_Enterprise

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#943

Post by hmmm-i-wonder »

rockemsockem wrote: post #467
riantogo wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would it cast any doubt? If you can use o1 output to build a better R1. Then use R1 output to build a better X1... then a better X2.. XN, that just shows a method to create better systems for a fraction of the cost from where we stand. If it was that obvious OpenAI should have themselves done. But the disruptors did it. It hindsight it might sound obvious, but that is true for all innovations. It is all good stuf…

I think the prevailing narrative ATM is that DeepSeek's own innovation was done in isolation and they surpassed OpenAI. Even though in the paper they give a lot of credit to Llama for their techniques. The idea that they used o1's outputs for their distillation further shows that models like o1 are necessary. All of this should have been clear anyway from the start, but that's the Internet for you.

>shows that models like o1 are necessary.

But HOW they are necessary is the change. They went from building blocks to stepping stones. From a business standpoint that's very damaging to OAI and other players.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#944

Post by paul_e_warner »

blast wrote: post #374

Everyone is responding to the intellectual property issue, but isn't that the less interesting point? If Deepseek trained off OpenAI, then it wasn't trained from scratch for "pennies on the dollar" and isn't the Sputnik-like technical breakthrough that we've been hearing so much about. That's the news here. Or rather, the potential news, since we don't know if it's true yet.

I feel like which one you care about depends on whether you're an AI researcher or an investor.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#945

Post by sillyfluke »

jajko wrote: post #926
PeterStuer wrote: post #911

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically Deepseek is doing what Open AI originally pledged to do. Making the model open and free is a gift to humanity. Look at the whole AI revolution that Meta and others have bootstrapped by opening their models. Meanwhile OpenAI/Microsoft, Antropic, Google and the rest are just trying to look after number 1 while trying to regulatory capture an AI for me but not for thee outcome of full control.

I don't think it makes sense to look at some previous PR statements of Altman et al re this when there a tens of billions floating around and egos get inflated to moon sizes. Farts in the wind have more weight, but this goes for all corporate PR. Thieves yelling 'stop those thieves' scenario to me, they just were first and would not like losing that position. But its all about money and consequently power, business a…

There seems to a rare moderation error by dang with respect to this thread.

The comments were moved here by dang from an flagged article with an editorialized /clickbait title. That flagged post has 1300 points at the time of writing.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42865527

1.

It should be incumbent on the moderator to at least consider that the motivation for the points and comments may have been because many thought the "hypocrisy" of OpenAI's position was a more important issue than OpenAI's actual claim of DeepSeek violating its ToS. Moving the comments to an article that buries the potential hypocrisy issue that may have driven the original points and comments is not ideal.

2.

This article is from FT, which has a content license deal with OpenAI. To move the comments to an article from a company that has a conflict of interest due to its commercial relations with the YC company in question is problematic here especially since dang often states they try to more hands-off on moderation when the article is about a YC company.

3.

There is a link by dang to this thread from the original thread, but there should also be a link by dang to the original thread from here as well. Why is this not the case?

4.

Ideally, dang should have asked for a more substantial submission that prioritized the hypocrisy point to better match the spirit of the original post instead of moving the comments to this article.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#946

Post by balder1991 »

curt15 wrote: post #936
PeterStuer wrote: post #911

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically Deepseek is doing what Open AI originally pledged to do. Making the model open and free is a gift to humanity. Look at the whole AI revolution that Meta and others have bootstrapped by opening their models. Meanwhile OpenAI/Microsoft, Antropic, Google and the rest are just trying to look after number 1 while trying to regulatory capture an AI for me but not for thee outcome of full control.

Is there anything still "open" about OpenAI these days?

Or another question, do they still publish any research that’s relevant for the field nowadays?

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#948

Post by awestroke »

balder1991 wrote: post #946
curt15 wrote: post #936

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there anything still "open" about OpenAI these days?

Or another question, do they still publish any research that’s relevant for the field nowadays?

No. They publish PDFs that hype up their models, but they do not publish anything even resembling a high-level overview of model architecture

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#949

Post by seaal »

sillyfluke wrote: post #945
jajko wrote: post #926

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it makes sense to look at some previous PR statements of Altman et al re this when there a tens of billions floating around and egos get inflated to moon sizes. Farts in the wind have more weight, but this goes for all corporate PR. Thieves yelling 'stop those thieves' scenario to me, they just were first and would not like losing that position. But its all about money and consequently power, business a…

There seems to a rare moderation error by dang with respect to this thread. The comments were moved here by dang from an flagged article with an editorialized /clickbait title. That flagged post has 1300 points at the time of writing. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42865527 1. It should be incumbent on the moderator to at least consider that the motivation for the points and comments may have been because many…

One of the few times I’ve disagreed with dang’s moderation, truly obnoxious to try and find a conversation you checked on previously.

Re: OpenAI says it has evidence DeepSeek used its model to train competitor

#950

Post by iamleppert »

curt15 wrote: post #936
PeterStuer wrote: post #911

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically Deepseek is doing what Open AI originally pledged to do. Making the model open and free is a gift to humanity. Look at the whole AI revolution that Meta and others have bootstrapped by opening their models. Meanwhile OpenAI/Microsoft, Antropic, Google and the rest are just trying to look after number 1 while trying to regulatory capture an AI for me but not for thee outcome of full control.

Is there anything still "open" about OpenAI these days?

I hear Sam is pretty open in his relationship.
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