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Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

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Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#941

Post by Y-bar »

birdboy2000 wrote: post #531
Y-bar wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hosting providers MUST be forced to provide a platform for everyone and anyone against the will of the provider. It SHALL NOT matter how many people their customers brag about driving to suicide. Nor should the hosting provider take into consideration harassment campaigns orchestrated by users of their platforms. -- Stallman, probably? /endsarcasm

I want content-neutral infrastructure. KF are scum and much of what they do should be illegal, but I want those decisions made in a court of law where they can defend themselves, not by whoever got in the ear of the right tech CEO. Platforms aren't people and shouldn't have rights.

Freedom of association is enshrined in many constitutions and laws across the globe as a fundamental right. Why do you want to force people to associate with those they do not want to?

I am member of a badminton club, we have a code-of-conduct. It contains things like:

- Don't harass other players

- Don't harass or be an ass towards refs

- Don't litter it the gym, keep it tidy

- Don't take performance-enhancing drugs

- and a few other such rules.

Why do we have to ask a judge in a court of law to be able to stop associating with a team-mate that keeps shouting sexual expletives at referees, keeps littering in the locker rooms, and generally makes the situation unpleasant? Why can't we just use our first amendment (or equivalent elsewhere) rights and stop associating?

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#942

Post by byyll »

sealeck wrote: post #814
cowtools wrote: post #806

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the goal of KF is to de-platform individuals, but merely to discredit them by publishing demeaning information and rumors about them. So they are categorically different: one side is pro-free-speech, and the other side is pro-censorship. "Doxxing" doesn't restrict someone else's free speech. It just discourages them from conducting speech under their public identity. If you ask me, what they ought to do…

> "Doxxing" doesn't restrict someone else's free speech. It just discourages them from conducting speech under their public identity. That is restricting their ability to speak freely - now they have to hide their identity for fear of physical violence!!!

I've seen people make the argument "free speech does not mean free from consequences". This seems to be the same case here. Free speech does not mean free from the consequence of "doxxing"

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#943

Post by tga_d »

throwawayacc2 wrote: post #938
crayboff wrote: post #909

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who do you think has more power? A group of anonymous internet "trolls" attacking and harassing an individual or the individual who can't do anything to stop it? Freedom of speech may protect against government consequences but it doesn't protect against social consequences.

> Freedom of speech may protect against government consequences but it doesn't protect against social consequences. Whenever I see this line, all I can think is this is the exact same reasoning used by racists and homophobes and religious fanatics in the past. Maybe it’s legal for you to be gay now, but we don’t want to welcome you in our community. Maybe it’s legal for black people to buy houses in our neighbourhood…

Kiwi farms is not being persecuted for holding an identity, it's being held accountable for actions taken against innocent people. Nobody reasonable thinks, e.g., "persons who engage in abusive behavior" should be a protected class shielded from all repercussions.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#945

Post by byyll »

bastardoperator wrote: post #725
cowtools wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free speech is more than just an amendment to the constitution. It is also a doctrine that knowledge and discussion should generally be free, and that people shouldn't be persecuted for their beliefs. It used to be that all forums had pervasive doxxing and swatting. People didn't use to have public internet identities like they do today- probably because there wasn't any way to profit from owning a public identity or…

The first amendment is designed to protect people from government. That's it. It's beyond clear in its text. Courts have ruled time and time again finding speech that harms people is most certainly not protected. We have laws that deal with slander, libel, harassment, and speech that does not pass the clear and present danger clause does meet the criteria for "free" speech. I don't understand how anyone can look at t…

(US) Law has nothing to do with free speech.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#946

Post by byyll »

burnte wrote: post #675
cowtools wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free speech is more than just an amendment to the constitution. It is also a doctrine that knowledge and discussion should generally be free, and that people shouldn't be persecuted for their beliefs. It used to be that all forums had pervasive doxxing and swatting. People didn't use to have public internet identities like they do today- probably because there wasn't any way to profit from owning a public identity or…

> Free speech is more than just an amendment to the constitution. It is also a doctrine that knowledge and discussion should generally be free, and that people shouldn't be persecuted for their beliefs. Should be persecuted BY THE GOVERNMENT. At no point has any nation held that all people should be able to say whatever they want at any time with zero repercussions from anywhere. You can yell in a crowded theater, an…

No post body was provided.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#947

Post by throwawayacc2 »

tga_d wrote: post #943
throwawayacc2 wrote: post #938

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Freedom of speech may protect against government consequences but it doesn't protect against social consequences. Whenever I see this line, all I can think is this is the exact same reasoning used by racists and homophobes and religious fanatics in the past. Maybe it’s legal for you to be gay now, but we don’t want to welcome you in our community. Maybe it’s legal for black people to buy houses in our neighbourhood…

Kiwi farms is not being persecuted for holding an identity, it's being held accountable for actions taken against innocent people. Nobody reasonable thinks, e.g., "persons who engage in abusive behavior" should be a protected class shielded from all repercussions.

The homosexuals are not being persecuted for holding an identity, they are being held accountable for actions taken against public decency and innocent children. Nobody reasonable thinks, eg, “persons who engage in degenerate behaviour” should be a protected class shielded from all repercussions.

- A homophobe cca 1954

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#948

Post by byyll »

ChicagoDave wrote: post #469
ivraatiems wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you ever watch 12 Angry Men ? There's a scene in that movie where an unabashedly racist man is making his point as loudly and angrily as he can. One by one, all the others in the room turn their backs on him. When only one man is left, that man has a short message for the racist: "Sit down, and don't open your mouth again while I'm here." Nobody puts him in jail. Nobody takes away his right to make a living or hi…

I don't know the entire history here, but my understanding is that KF was a forum where doxing and swatting was openly pervasive. Sounds like a perfect example of society holding a site accountable and producing the correct outcome. There was no government involved, so it's not a "free speech" issue. I always talk about the wild west of the late 90's when the Internet was brand new. My colleagues and I all talked abo…

> I don't know the entire history here, but my understanding is that KF was a forum where doxing and swatting was openly pervasive.

That's the issue. You are getting your understanding for the situation from one side as the other is being actively censored.

> There was no government involved, so it's not a "free speech" issue.

(US) government or laws have nothing to do with free speech.

> don't support bad behavior and certainly not dangerous

"bad" and "dangerous" are broad and extremely, extremely subjective terms.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#949

Post by elcamino44 »

account42 wrote: post #939
Teever wrote: post #928

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But isn't that a catch-22? If the twitter mob wasn't successful in getting KF kicked off, than KF would have been more powerful than the twitter mob? What alternative are you suggesting, that we just roll over and let these kinds of assholes ruin lives with impunity? "Power never takes a back step only in the face of more power."

We don't need to let either mob kick anyone off from the internet.

Okay, but how do you propose the victims of Kiwifarms protect themselves from being kicked off the internet?

And remember we’re not talking about their physical ability to connect to the internet (after all, no one has deprived Kiwifarms of that), we’re talking about their ability to access their audience and use their current identity.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#950

Post by tga_d »

throwawayacc2 wrote: post #947
tga_d wrote: post #943

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kiwi farms is not being persecuted for holding an identity, it's being held accountable for actions taken against innocent people. Nobody reasonable thinks, e.g., "persons who engage in abusive behavior" should be a protected class shielded from all repercussions.

The homosexuals are not being persecuted for holding an identity, they are being held accountable for actions taken against public decency and innocent children. Nobody reasonable thinks, eg, “persons who engage in degenerate behaviour” should be a protected class shielded from all repercussions. - A homophobe cca 1954

So, just to be clear here: the position that you're arguing is that there are literally no actions anyone can take that should have social repercussions to them?
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