Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19 • Hacker News Board

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#941

Post by C1sc0cat » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 1:43 PM UTC

AndrewUnmuted wrote: post #689

rhizome wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A BIG chunk of all that drama is due to the US social safety net not including childcare. That's the thing disturbing thing about these stories: employees are turned against each other when it's a) the company; and b) your tax dollars, not providing any kind of built-in childcare for society. In France, kids can go to preschool and have pre- and post- school childcare, which has to be paid, but it's only like $500/mo…

The biggest chunk is due to the US's (and much of the rest of the world's) lock-down policies. I am not a parent, but I am disgusted that so many in society would wish to knowingly ruin childrens' lives all over the world just to continue living through this obscene assault upon humanity. Even if we were to buy the absurd notion that we will save substantial numbers of lives by forcing kids to go to school remotely,…

And if a kids goes back to school and infects an at risk family member - imagine being 10 years old and being responsible for the death of your grandpa or mum who is on treme risk register.

Puts missing some crammed for test into perspective.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#942

Post by formerly_proven » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 1:46 PM UTC

user5994461 wrote: post #882

rhizome wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A BIG chunk of all that drama is due to the US social safety net not including childcare. That's the thing disturbing thing about these stories: employees are turned against each other when it's a) the company; and b) your tax dollars, not providing any kind of built-in childcare for society. In France, kids can go to preschool and have pre- and post- school childcare, which has to be paid, but it's only like $500/mo…

>>> it's only like $500/mo In France the large majority of workers make 1000 - 2000 euro a month after taxes. Half of it going to rent like in every city. That means people may have a couple hundreds euros left at the end of the month in disposable income after rent, food, gas, taxes, etc... That is to say 500/month for childcare is insanely expensive and unaffordable!

I think that is common across Europe / social states:

- Half of gross income is taxation

- Half of the net income is rent

- Half of the net-net income is other cost of living

- The remainder is disposable income (~10 % of gross income)

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#943

Post by xiaosun » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 1:47 PM UTC

dheera wrote: post #298

kevstev wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a mid 30s childless man I completely agree. We essentially sent people home on a Friday, told them to figure out a work from home situation, and then they were told welp your kids aren't going to school either, and whatever childcare you had lined up has now vanished too- and this is all happening in the course of a few days at most. So now you have kids to worry about all day, home schooling to oversee, focusing…

IMO the real broken part of this system is that people are not getting legally-protected personal time. A big part of the resentment is that a person who chose to have children ends up being able to be excused from work to take care of children, while a person who has no children is not as easily excused to do what they want to do, because it is deemed low priority compared to children. We need to be prioritizing peo…

Then get off at 6. Who's forcing you to stay til 11?

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#944

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 1:56 PM UTC

rhizome wrote: post #459

rootusrootus wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ignoring the obvious downsides for a moment, I'd happily trade places with one of my childless coworkers right about now. This morning I went up and down the stairs at least ten times while trying to get my 7- and 9-year old kids successfully established in their first remote learning session, simultaneously participating in two consecutive Zoom meetings with coworkers, and figuring out how to solve a nagging issue i…

A BIG chunk of all that drama is due to the US social safety net not including childcare. That's the thing disturbing thing about these stories: employees are turned against each other when it's a) the company; and b) your tax dollars, not providing any kind of built-in childcare for society. In France, kids can go to preschool and have pre- and post- school childcare, which has to be paid, but it's only like $500/mo…

[deleted]

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#945

Post by RandoHolmes » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 1:57 PM UTC

Loughla wrote: post #932

RandoHolmes wrote: post #582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

roughly in the same boat you are, and I actually find it difficult to believe that this is anything more than an imagined problem. I can't imagine there's that many people that don't understand children are important and children need to be taken care of. I certainly have never gotten angry at not getting the tax breaks those with more dependents get, and I can't imagine there's that many other people who do. My opin…

>I certainly have never gotten angry at not getting the tax breaks those with more dependents get, and I can't imagine there's that many other people who do. Cruising through this comment section tells me that a lot of people think about this a lot, apparently. Many are also apparently bitter that their tax dollars pay for services for children, even though they don't have children. What a confusing attitude.

Yeah... I quickly revised my opinion after continuing through the comments of this thread.

Apparently there ARE people who are that angry? It doesn't really make sense to me.

I saw one poster compare it to smokers who get to take quick smoke breaks. I don't have a habit that forces me to take breaks every 30 minutes to an hour or I go into withdrawal, doesn't make me smell like a smoker, and doesn't inherently put me at risk of cancer. Isn't that in itself a reward for not smoking? Instead you have to get pissed at someone who smokes? Do you REALLY want to be out there inhaling that smoke with the other smokers?

It just makes no sense to me, but I've also never viewed working hours as a zero-sum game.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#946

Post by boringg » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 1:58 PM UTC

phreeza wrote: post #775

shiftpgdn wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know of two parents who have been let go during covid. All of the people on their team who had been let go were parents of young children.

At faang size companies?

Second this comment - this sounds more like super small startup then at a the larger sized operations. Also sounds pretty terrible of the employer

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#947

Post by thedufer » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 2:01 PM UTC

smeeth wrote: post #361

nicbou wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument is made again and again in this thread, and it never got addressed. 1. There are already functional mechanisms for contribution. A single, childless person is already contributing more through their taxes. The government already heavily subsidises child-rearing. 2. Child-rearing is given an arbitrary pass that other equally charitable actions wouldn't get. A single, childless person couldn't let his com…

>The government already heavily subsidises child-rearing. Ah yes, the lofty government subsidy of x > Child-rearing is given an arbitrary pass that other equally charitable actions wouldn't get. Raising a child is spending 20-40 hrs a week for 18 years and a boatload of money to create another person in the workforce who will spend ~40 years generating GDP and paying taxes. Considering GDP per capita in the USA is ~$…

> Ah yes, the lofty government subsidy of x You chose one particularly inexpensive subsidy, and ignored everything else. 200 days/year of free childcare is not free. Maternity/paternity leave is coming out of someone's pocket. Many social programs are heavily skewed towards children (SNAP participants are around 1/2 children, despite them only being 1/4 of the population, for example).

I'm not saying we shouldn't do these things - modern society makes having children expensive, and it's obviously best for all of us if we ensure some base level of care for them. But we don't have to pretend it isn't happening.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#948

Post by boringg » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 2:02 PM UTC

x87678r wrote: post #231

codemac wrote: post #5

Personally, I struggle with these feelings as well. It seems nuts that someone working 50%+ less than someone else is going to keep all the same equity, vacation, and salary. Then again it seems nuts that they don't. All employees who had children or family members to care for before or after COVID get none of the same support. I don't think backpay is coming for those who were forced to take leave or even quit their…

> It seems nuts that someone working 50%+ less than someone else is going to keep all the same equity, vacation, and salary. Then again it seems nuts that they don't. Is that really true though? In my team parents are still online 40+ hours a week. Definitely if some single person (or parent) is producing double everyone else they should get bonuses or promotion over everyone else.

Agree sounds like a straw man argument from the previous comment. I really don't think parents are down 50%.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#949

Post by bumby » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 2:04 PM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #4

I am a middle-aged adult with no children who's worked at tech firms for the past couple decades. To be honest, the "resentment" of those without children have for "benefits" those with children get strikes me as extremely selfish, immature and displaying a total lack of empathy. This is time off specifically to take care of children, something now that has become exceedingly more difficult in Covid times. What's nex…

>This is time off specifically to take care of children

I think this is the crux of the problem that some people have. I am happy to work for a company that allows flexible schedules to help parents. I have no qualms about shouldering additional burdens to help. However, there is a certain percentage of opportunists who take advantage of the situation and confuse this generosity with entitlement. I have some suspicions that some of this time is being used for side projects rather taking care of kids. I have multiple coworkers who have installed new pools/patios during this flex period and will occasionally even cut online meetings short to oversee some of the work being done at their house. It does cause me to raise my eyebrows when they can't get their workload done because of they feel entitled to a certain amount of extra benefits.

I think people need to feel like everyone is pulling for the same mission and part of the same team. I'm grateful to be in a position to help ease other people's stress but leaders need to make sure everyone is still accountable and not taking advantage of the situation.

Re: Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees during Covid-19

#950

Post by boringg » Wed, Sep 09, 2020, 2:08 PM UTC

codemac wrote: post #5

Personally, I struggle with these feelings as well. It seems nuts that someone working 50%+ less than someone else is going to keep all the same equity, vacation, and salary. Then again it seems nuts that they don't. All employees who had children or family members to care for before or after COVID get none of the same support. I don't think backpay is coming for those who were forced to take leave or even quit their…

I disagree with you categorizing it at 50% - seems like an arbitrary number that is unrealistically high in addition how do you measure productivity? Time at the desk? As well a lot of non children workers are also equally not as productive so I think you have a straw man argument going on here.

Finally, you miss the truth to the matter. If you are getting paid in equity you want the whole boat to float so short term mindsets such as working less for a couple months vs keeping the whole ship floating as a whole is more important. Imagine all the companies with parents just burned out right now - that's the difference.