Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall • Hacker News Board

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#941

Post by dongvsascript » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 6:30 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #760

dongvsascript wrote: post #735

Earlier quoted context omitted.

or, follow me on this. i just walk out onto the street, type "restaurant" into google, and pick something with 4 star and up reviews. no marketing or presentations involved - just what people around there reviewed as good. and the food is average. this isn't bad, but average food with some gems you have to know about and take an uber to, is not a reason to live in a city - and it was presented as such in the comment…

> or, follow me on this. i just walk out onto the street, type "restaurant" into google, and pick something with 4 star and up reviews. no marketing or presentations involved Heh. Reliance on numerical ratings in online reviews isn't particularly different than reliance on marketing with a specific demographic targeting and, yeah, surprisingly enough it does tend to lead you to the more instagram-ready establishments…

right.. when someone eats at a place and gives it a number of stars rating how good it was, it tells you the same about how good it is as instagram marketing. here's the point - you go to sf, get a place around you with good reviews, and the food is overpriced, overpresented, and average in taste.

The OP literally stated a reason to live in SF is the food. That's simply false. It's not poor quality, but it's no reason to live there. It's not better than in an average city.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#942

Post by ghaff » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 6:32 PM UTC

fragmede wrote: post #930

ghaff wrote: post #852

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>where you can live (and I mean truly live) without a car Maybe. I do know a couple who live in SF who don't own a car but they sure use a lot of Ubers and do rentals. More generally, and I'm probably just showing personal bias, but for me living in SF without the ability to just hop in a car and go to mountains etc. seems like it would be cutting myself off from much of what makes SF more interesting than comparably…

I should have been more specific and said owning a car. It's more convenient to use a car in many situations and modern car rental places (Zipcar/Turo/Getaround), along with the traditional car rental companies, mean its easy to rent one for a few hours or a weekend. Depending on where in the city you live and how often to you go the mountains, the cost of car payment + parking + insurance may or may not be worth it…

That's certainly an option. Depends on your requirements and how much you use the vehicle. Renting does have some friction associated with it but, if you're only going to use a car a couple weekends a month, don't have dedicated parking, and don't need/want anything special, it may well make more sense to rent.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#943

Post by 01100011 » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 6:33 PM UTC

room500 wrote: post #857

01100011 wrote: post #694

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better off in what sense? I think it depends on one's life goals and value system. I've seen people live amazingly fulfilling lives in flyover country while making average incomes, far better than an average income earner stuck in a big city.

Everyone has their own set of values - I don't judge your decisions at all in this case. However, to give some perspective, I grew up in a rural/suburban "flyover" town. There are parts of my childhood that I would love my own children to have - running outdoors, opportunities to try things without committing to the (sure, I'll sign up for the baseball team and see what happens), etc But what I realize that I missed…

I grew up in an exburb of what, at the time, was a 3rd rate city so I sort of understand what you went through. That said, it wasn't hard for my family to expose me to big cities via travel. I definitely missed out on college prep, but that was a failure of my family's culture and not something I would blame on my location. I was actually able to rise to the top(state electronics competition) thanks to being a big fish in a small pond. In most major cities I never would have gotten that far.

There's nothing about living in a smaller town that says you have to compromise the expectations you set for your kids. For some reason, native-born Americans often fall into that trap, while immigrant parents understand and push their children regardless. Moving outside of a major city isn't about completely giving up, its about choosing a different track for your life.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#944

Post by geebee » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 6:54 PM UTC

sershe wrote: post #928

geebee wrote: post #877

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3) A friend who is moving to Santa Cruz just to be closer to surf while we are remote Yeah? I've lived in SF and Santa Cruz. The quality of surf in Santa Cruz is vastly better, but the crowds are intense and at times pretty angry. I found it was less about localism, more about the anger of a large number of often very talented surfers competing for a scarce resource. I got longer, better rides in SC than I typically…

Unrelated but it cracked me up... I do a bunch of outdoor stuff but really couldn't get into surfing (and downhill skiing) because you have to wait/jostle with people/paddle forever/wait some more until you finally get 1 minute of enjoyment (or more like 10 seconds when you are starting out with surfing). I thought it was the beginner problem because the places where I can be are so few, and I suck at catching waves.…

I suspect part of the problem (for surfing) is the absence of a clear line-up. It's not the wait that bugs me, it's the constant maneuvering (and physical dangers of collisions in the water with boards). If I could join a clear defined lineup, wait my turn, paddle into a wave that I knew was mine to take, get a nice long ride, and re-join the lineup, I'd be fine with it. That there is such a thing as a line up at breaks with very well defined take-off zones, but even that breaks down pretty quickly in a crowd. A small number of surfers can make it happen, but good breaks in an accessible place (certainly everywhere in Santa Cruz) will exceed this crowd size 98% of the time.

I'm not a climber at all, but I've done a little bit of climbing on an indoor wall, and a crowded day means you need to wait longer, which is a hassle, but I get the feeling there's a much clearer sense of how to wait for your turn, with less interference when it is your turn. No idea if this is the case for outdoor climbing, though, or at more advanced sites. I'd still prefer a less crowded day with shorter lines of course - but crowds on a surf break don't just make it take longer to get the experience of a ride, they can pretty well ruin it. That's a big part of why I only surf uncrowded beach break.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#945

Post by Zanneth » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 7:09 PM UTC

always_left wrote: post #568

I’ve said it before, shame so many of you don’t appreciate SF. It’s not perfect but it’s so much better than where I grew up. To be able to go to Marin, Yosemite, Tahoe, Big Sur, etc. for a weekend is truly amazing. Granted I’m privileged I can go there and I’m not a night life person, it’s truly a dream for me. The city also has many pockets of nature that are huge (presidio, gg Park). I hope you find a place that m…

Thank you for saying this. I grew up in a rundown suburb in the middle of the desert, so I feel very lucky to be able to live in SF now. It’s not perfect of course, but I’m proud to be able to call this place home.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#946

Post by tayo42 » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 7:19 PM UTC

geebee wrote: post #877

captaincole wrote: post #102

I am living in SF now and this confirms a very clear pattern that I have seen emerging, particularly of tech workers. I would say that >50% of the people I know who were living in the city have left, or are in the process of leaving. Some examples (there are countless): 1) All three of the roommates that I had are choosing to leave either permanently or temporarily. 2) A friend who works for google who is going on a…

3) A friend who is moving to Santa Cruz just to be closer to surf while we are remote Yeah? I've lived in SF and Santa Cruz. The quality of surf in Santa Cruz is vastly better, but the crowds are intense and at times pretty angry. I found it was less about localism, more about the anger of a large number of often very talented surfers competing for a scarce resource. I got longer, better rides in SC than I typically…

I am making that move, definitely surf motivated. But the sc crowds made me hesitate. im hoping the weekdays at weird hours will be better then weekend afternoons when i was there along with everyone else. i think living there gives you access to the other beaches no one talks about, up 1 and stuff. i also like to think i can out surf most people after 17 years lol. all through high school and college i never surfed weekends or holidays, i got my fill before work surfing the week. expecting to go back to that

in the end for me ob is to hit or miss and the season is really only fall. 8ft+ ob when the solid winter swell come in gets crazy. spring and summer just blown wind. pacifica has weird locals and crap waves. hmb barely breaks and traffic sucks. fall surf at ocean beach is about as good as it gets though, ill miss that for sure. post covid ill get my perfect wave fill in hawaii, indo, central america i guess, ive saved so much money the last few months

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#947

Post by staticautomatic » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 7:20 PM UTC

mediaman wrote: post #902

shadowtree wrote: post #884

Unpopular opinion - if you can simply move or work while traveling as an IC - you are not an essential worker for your company. The big productivity culling is coming, overhiring was so easy, all seemed justified. Careful of marking yourself as replaceable with remote labor. You might not like just how remote management will go :)

Does anyone have a counter to the idea that greater management confidence and expertise in remote work will unlock offshoring of IC tech roles, and therefore create a vastly bigger pool of low priced tech competition? The primary problem I see is that offshoring tech work to India has been an option for a long time, but has largely failed for a variety of reasons - US companies seem to feel they get better value payi…

It’s an attractive idea to anyone who hasn’t actually managed a team of Indian devs or worked with a typical Indian BPO company. IME they tend to require an obscene amount of oversight and micromanagement. I’m certain that’s not categorically true of all Indian labor, but it’s definitely been true of all my experiences.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#948

Post by jasondelta » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 7:28 PM UTC

hpkuarg wrote: post #832

josephmosby wrote: post #824

Earlier quoted context omitted.

#1 suggestion: Washington, DC. Museums (the Smithsonian museums), bars, restaurants (one of the Michelin cities), proximity to nature (there's a national park that cuts through the middle of the city, there's the National Arboretum, and you're about an hour drive from numerous state parks in Virginia and Maryland) #2 suggestion: Chicago, IL. Museums (check), bars (check), restaurants (also a Michelin city), nature (L…

> a national park that cuts through the middle of the city Come now, you aren't suggesting that the National Mall counts as "proximity to nature" ;-) I've spent some time in all three cities and live in one; none of them really offer the same ease of access to nature as does San Francisco, if you count nature as necessarily including some level of remoteness from the built-up environment.

I think they're referring to Rock Creek Park, which runs down the middle of DC in the north and is run by the National Park Service.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#949

Post by globular-toast » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 7:30 PM UTC

WWLink wrote: post #926

globular-toast wrote: post #808

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drunk people tend to get sick, fight and break things which has a huge public cost.

Yeah, but they could do that any time of day! Especially when you close bars at 1am and send everyone drunk onto the street at the same time.

They don't, though, do they? They do it at night.

Re: Remote work is reshaping San Francisco, as tech workers flee and rents fall

#950

Post by lsaac » Mon, Aug 17, 2020, 7:53 PM UTC

radicaldreamer wrote: post #530

koolba wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The misconception is that people are leaving because the housing is too expensive and its not worth it anymore. Almost everybody I know that moved out had no problem affording housing (high earners / home owners / rent controlled). People are leaving because quality of life has fallen dramatically and the only thing keeping people in SF was their offices. Whether something is too expensive is not just a function of…

Only in the short to medium term... the characteristics which make SF an attractive place to live (just like NYC) are resilient and sticky. If you consider a post-covid world 5 years from now, do you think that SF with it's museums, bars, restaurants, and proximity to nature will be an unattractive place to live? Do you think that remote-first/remote-only companies where the majority of employees are outside of the b…

A vacated city doesn't wait around for your blip to pass, it fills up with all sorts of nastiness, making it even more unpleasant for anyone to return.