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James Damore and three others end Google suit

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Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#941

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He skipped over classical liberal and very quickly gave interviews to prominent alt-right figures like Stefan Molyneaux.

He also tweeted during the middle of this, "The KKK is horrible and I don't support them in any way, but can we admit that their internal title names are cool, e.g. 'Grand Wizard'?" So... shrugs

That's called a joke.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#942
post #155

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It doesnt cast doubt though.. You cant have so much more women than the rest of the industry without that being true. There literally is not enough women coming through engineering schools to allow for that without you a) discriminating against men based on sex, and b) lowering the bar for women. There is no doubt. It is a mathematical given.

At the time, a Googler explained here how they did it without doing either a or b https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14957764

Maybe one day people can stop looking at immutable physical characteristics like sex and skin color. Until then it's all discrimination by another name.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#943

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Damore was asked to provide feedback at the diversity program. He did and shared his document for internal feedback and discussion. Damore was fired for this. Your objection is that saying "Google" did each of those things "hides relevant details". I disagree given that I've explicitly stated those details in this thread. Taking a single sentence and complaining it lacks details which are readily available in the wid…

I think a person genuinely trying to give advice doesn't act the way Damore did. But let's say you're right, that his very best effort to collaborate with his colleagues was a divisive attack on their politics. That his very best effort to collaborate involved sticking to his guns to the point it was causing a major internal problem, and then a notable external one. In which case, he's so uniquely bad at collaboratio…

Damore's memo was not a "divisive attack on their politics". On the other hand, lying about his memo to describe it that way does seem like a divisive attack.

I don't think you're being honest or fair here and don't see the benefit of continuing a conversation with you.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#944
post #932

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Wanting to ignore America's long history of sexism and racism is a political position. Wanting to ignore the effects of those is a political position. Your contributions here are political activism. If you want to be a reactionary, fine. But please own it.

I'm not sure if reactionary is the label, but I'll own whatever side doesn't have diversity committees at work - or HR departments if I'm allowed to dream.

Well I'm glad we both agree you're now a political activist.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#945

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a person genuinely trying to give advice doesn't act the way Damore did. But let's say you're right, that his very best effort to collaborate with his colleagues was a divisive attack on their politics. That his very best effort to collaborate involved sticking to his guns to the point it was causing a major internal problem, and then a notable external one. In which case, he's so uniquely bad at collaboratio…

Damore's memo was not a "divisive attack on their politics". On the other hand, lying about his memo to describe it that way does seem like a divisive attack. I don't think you're being honest or fair here and don't see the benefit of continuing a conversation with you.

The go link was "pc-considered-harmful". I think Damore clearly understood that what he was doing was political. And starting from "PC", a right-wing caricature of left-wing positions, could not be anything other than divisive. If you'd like to argue that was somehow all accidental, that he was just incredibly bad a communication, feel free.

I'm being perfectly honest, and I'm doing my best to be fair. If you don't like that, well, I did my best.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#946

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damore's memo was not a "divisive attack on their politics". On the other hand, lying about his memo to describe it that way does seem like a divisive attack. I don't think you're being honest or fair here and don't see the benefit of continuing a conversation with you.

The go link was "pc-considered-harmful". I think Damore clearly understood that what he was doing was political. And starting from "PC", a right-wing caricature of left-wing positions, could not be anything other than divisive. If you'd like to argue that was somehow all accidental, that he was just incredibly bad a communication, feel free. I'm being perfectly honest, and I'm doing my best to be fair. If you don't l…

I strongly object with characterizing being inclusive and mindful of how your speech affects others as a "left-wing positions". It's basic politeness.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#947
post #899

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I think these behaviors are toxic and off putting to other men too, but men seem to be more willing to put up with them. I don't see an equivalence to nursing or primary school teaching since by and large it's not the toxic aspects of these careers that puts off men, it's the lack of pay and status.

So basically men and women are different and have different interests and attitudes. What's the problem with them choosing different professions then?

If the reasons for them choosing different professions is simple preference regarding the nature of tasks, no problem. If the reason is that our profession is toxic in a way that puts them off that's a problem.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#948

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I honestly want to meet techbros. I live in some sort of echo chamber where gender is so irrelevant to most participants. I have never seen anyone ask someone's gender on a github issue, I may have missed it but I have seen few issues opened because no inclusivity. No one in any of the programming communities I am in gives two shit about the gender of the participants. Most people have pseudonyms with anime avatars a…

Honestly, they aren't in github issues. They are on Twitter, they are sending people DMs, they are at physical meetups. Me and my wife are both AI academics in the UK who do a bunch of programming. I have no "interesring stories" to tell, my wife has a dozen including men punching walls because they were beaten by a woman in a board game, being sent death threats and dick pics (not from the same person), and being as…

Sounds like those issues she is having is not due to her industry, but just due to some sort of other dynamics not necessarily related to the industry itself.

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#949
post #188

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> We want more [singleton] in [x]. > We should make [x] more attractive to [singleton]. Why? Unless the field is more toxic to [singleton] or there is more productivity due to "diversity" at which point you are admitting that people are different on biological (or social) level and have different interests, views etc.

Diversity is a desirable trait, especially in things that produce products that are designed to be used by the entire planet. My mother explained diversity to me this way: "We are each of us, unique but equal. Meaning that while you will grow up and be stronger than me, I will be able to produce children. This doesn't make either of us better, both should be respected as equal. There is value but difference in both."…

Toilets are needed by all people on the entire planet, so by your logic we should have more diverse emoloyees in toilet manufacturing, since toilets are used by so many people. Wouldn't we also be better off if more women were working in the garbage industry? We need women's diversity in the garbage collecting industry because their diversity will help improve garbage collection for the entire planet.

Does it really make a difference if the same feature is implemented by a man versus a woman?

Re: James Damore and three others end Google suit

#950

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Is there any evidence that would convince you that interests can diverge, independent of society (nurture)? Your argument relies on the assumption (yes, an assumption, not evidence) that society exclusively determines our interests. You do not admit a role for biology. There is little scientific evidence that supports this view.

https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2005-11115-001 Current research generally does not find evidence that variations in preferences, psychology, or personality stem from genetic or biological factors. Rather, they’re primarily attributed to culture and socialization.

Actually the abstract points out that this hypothesis is one going against the largely held scientific view of biological factors and gender differences...

A rebuttal a year later in the related section points out omissions from this paper and offers a deeper perspective on the differences

https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2006-11202-013

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