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Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

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Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#941

Post by awelkie »

Abishek_Muthian wrote: post #931
hjk05 wrote: post #928

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, the plan to jail those who hold cryptocurrency in a democratic country is preposterous No it isn’t. We jail people who hold child pornography in democratic countries as well. The core of a democratic country is that it’s governed by democratically elected representatives, not that it’s citizens be allowed access to whatever they want independent of criminal consequences. I get you and others are calling to the…

>If this legislation passes, any computer scientist, mathematician, programmer who is working with crypto tokens & block chain can technically be held liable for possessing a crypto currency when they run their program? Please appropriate your logic on that.

>If this legislation passes, any computer scientist, mathematician, programmer who is working with [automated ponzi schemes] can technically be held liable for [creating a ponzi scheme] when they run their program?

I don't see the issue. When a democratic society thinks something isn't good, they can outlaw it. There are all sorts of regulations on financial transactions and investments already.

I'm not trying to imply that cryptocurrencies are ponzi schemes, just that when something is illegal, doing it on your computer doesn't make it not illegal.

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#942

Post by deafcalculus »

How does Libra work? It sounds more like a traditional currency, except it isn't issued by a nation, but by a bunch of companies. The peg to a basket of currencies suggests that it'll operate like a currency board regime. Do they completely give up monetary independence by backing every Libra with a dollar in reserve (or a basket of currencies)? Or is the plan to make Libra eventually float and have some decentralised mechanism to set interest rates?

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#943

Post by stef25 »

fnord77 wrote: post #767
taurath wrote: post #652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not 100% steeped in cryptocurrency theory, and so I don't understand why this is presented as if it's agreed on by everyone. What problems does the world have that would be solved by an online, independent [of any nation, presumably?] currency? Visa and Mastercard are taking a 3-4% cut of every single consumer payment made in much of the world. That ends up being a very, very big number. There are many people a…

> Visa and Mastercard are taking a 3-4% cut have you tried buying anything with bitcoin? currently the transaction fee is almost $2 to have your transaction confirmed within 10 minutes. Not a lot on big purchases, but that's 20% if you're say trying to buy a $10 lunch with bitcoin.

> lunch

Bitcoin fees are basically just the price you pay for having drugs delivered to your house.

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#944

Post by _cs2017_ »

roberto wrote: post #835
_cs2017_ wrote: post #817

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think hackernews has a strong anti-facebook bias Is HN really more anti-Facebook than the general population? If so, why?

> Is HN really more anti-Facebook than the general population? Yes, definitely. > If so, why? Because the general population cares less about privacy than HN. But I (not OP) think it goes deeper than that, and I've seen people here deliberately spreading lies about FB.

Interesting. What else, besides privacy concerns, could be at play?

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#945

Post by arisAlexis »

nroets wrote: post #907
Abishek_Muthian wrote: post #864

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook's hold in developing economies is true. But developing economy's hold on their Fiat currency is true as well. So much so that, India is planning to jail anyone who is holding cryptocurrency for 10 years[1]! If this legislation passes, any computer scientist, mathematician, programmer who is working with crypto tokens & block chain can technically be held liable for possessing a crypto currency when they run…

In South Africa, we still have capital controls. My mom earned dollars through PayPal. She couldn't spend it online and had to convert her earnings to Rand within 3 months. Bureaucrats will insist that the same rules apply to libra. India is even less ready for relaxing capital controls. They will tell Facebook to block libra for their citizens or be firewalled. No one is going to jail, but libra will not succeed the…

that is why totally decentralised systems such as Bitcoin are important. Noone can firewall it

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#946

Post by _cs2017_ »

lmm wrote: post #926
_cs2017_ wrote: post #817

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think hackernews has a strong anti-facebook bias Is HN really more anti-Facebook than the general population? If so, why?

I've heard it alleged that HN "top users" are disproportionately Google employees; if so that would explain it.

I'd be very surprised if that was so. People move often between the two companies, and in my experience speak of each other quite positively.

More generally, I doubt any employee of a large tech firm has so much loyalty and devotion to their employer that they would take to the internet to undermine a competitor.

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#947

Post by deafcalculus »

deafcalculus wrote: post #942

How does Libra work? It sounds more like a traditional currency, except it isn't issued by a nation, but by a bunch of companies. The peg to a basket of currencies suggests that it'll operate like a currency board regime. Do they completely give up monetary independence by backing every Libra with a dollar in reserve (or a basket of currencies)? Or is the plan to make Libra eventually float and have some decentralise…

The TC article says that every Libra issued is backed by USD and other currencies in reserve. So, no independent monetary policy. This looks a whole lot more like full-reserve banking than a cryptocurrency. Are they calling it a cryptocurrency to avoid KYC requirements and other banking regulations?

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#948

Post by stef25 »

So the logic is that people in Africa have smartphones but no bank accounts. Wherever they buy their phone credits (cash for a voucher in a corner shop), they could also buy Libra top-up vouchers? It must involve a cash transaction after all.

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#949

Post by mekoka »

throwaway287391 wrote: post #923
mekoka wrote: post #853

Let's play a game of predictions. Regardless of HN's opinion of Facebook (and regardless of my own for that matter) I predict that this thing will work. This is only one thing my crystal ball showed me. Facebook's presence in developing economies is massive. To the point of being synonymous with "The Internet" in a number of places. But they've had a nagging problem. People in these economies consume contents, but do…

> Multiple agreements will be signed with various financial institutions and probably more with various telecom in those regions, to allow people to load up their accounts with fbcoins and join the Great Internet Spending Frenzy. This is the part I don't get. I thought we were talking about all-cash economies in regions with essentially no banking, but then you bring up "various financial institutions [...] in those…

Not all-cash, rather mostly cash. They do have banks, but think of banking as a luxury in those economies, not a commodity. They're for well established businesses and the rich. For everybody else, banks can be really tedious to deal with. So unless they have the means, people tend to just avoid the hassle. Even simply opening a bank account can be prohibitive, forget about getting a credit card, even prepaid.

There's a variety of independent institutions that provide some services to fill the gaps. For example, telecom companies are often used as a medium to send money. There are also smaller, third-party or local financial service providers (formal and informal), that are more convenient for the short term, day-to-day way of life in these places. They can offer small loans, micro-financing, money transfer, and a number of other devices. And yes, currently they're the ones people generally go through to make purchases over the Internet. Fees are not always competitive.

One typical approach people understand very well in a day-to-day economy is the preloaded cards. For small amounts (think 20$ or less) people can go to their telecom card provider and purchase some fbcoins. But that's not the hard part of the equation. The hard part is to get the other side (the developed world) to recognize the fbcoin. This is what's at play here and now. If Facebook can show to the world, "look, Netflix and YouTube can now take your money", they'd have won a huge part of the battle.

Re: Facebook reveals its cryptocurrency Libra

#950

Post by mimixco »

mekoka wrote: post #853

Let's play a game of predictions. Regardless of HN's opinion of Facebook (and regardless of my own for that matter) I predict that this thing will work. This is only one thing my crystal ball showed me. Facebook's presence in developing economies is massive. To the point of being synonymous with "The Internet" in a number of places. But they've had a nagging problem. People in these economies consume contents, but do…

That scenario falls apart when the global poor don't have any money to buy FB coins, which they don't. Agreements with banks won't give the unbanked the free cash flow to play around with digital money or buy a bunch of stuff online.

I think they whole issue of the unbanked is a ruse. Facebook stands to earn more here by trying to convert regular consumers away from PayPal and debit cards and charge them fees for exchanging in and out of Libra. They'll also invite regulation in crypto so they can be the only one who meets the regulatory requirements and shut out the others. It's an end run around crypto without being one itself.

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