Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

921–930 of 1001 posts

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#921

Post by dralley »

shprd wrote: post #758
awaywithcovid wrote: post #694

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The current conflict isn't some thousand year old feud" Well, actually, it is. There were 1200 years of war, conquest, slavery, ethnic cleansing, genocide and apartheid up until the caliphate was defeated and broken up in 1920/1924. For 1200 years, non-muslims lived under apartheid (Dhimmi). Up until that point, Islamic supremacism was as firmly established as white supremacism was in America. I suppose if America (…

> some land was made available to the Native Americans to build their own sovereign nation, you would be against that ? You know that would have been great. But who are the native Americans in your example? Majority of Zionists that established Israel and their groups arrived by ships from Europe. Wouldn't that more resemble England and Spain colonization expeditions in your example? Weird.. like the story almost mat…

If you were a European Jew in the late 1940s after the fall of the Nazis, you were still faced with the prospect of living under the local governance of Nazi collaborators, continued pogroms [0] and antisemitism, and potentially Joseph Stalin's USSR. It's not like everything immediately went back to normal, either in real terms or psychological ones. Even if you survived your friends, family and neighbors are GONE.

It's unsurprising that many wouldn't want to reintegrate with that society after what they experienced, even if they managed to avoid the camps (and especially if they didn't).

It is ridiculous to just throw them into the same category with the English and Spanish colonists searching for riches in the New World.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kielce_pogrom

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#922

Post by iugtmkbdfil834 »

SurgicalDoc_UK wrote: post #699
xg15 wrote: post #21

Everything else aside, this is an absolutely fantastic development and I really hope the ceasefire holds and all hostages are released. I just fear this will cause western media and politicians to and declare the crisis to be over (after it had began on Oct. 7, of course absolutely out of the blue and without any context...) and go back to pretending everything is back to normal. Never mind that Gaza is still in ruin…

Exactly. This war has really messed up the world and Israel for generations to come. Never mind the devastation in Gaza. But the Palestinians cant keep living under occupation. Everyone should continue to exert pressure for a free Palestine or the cycle will continue. The fundamental goal of the current Israeli government is to never have a Palestinian state, which will always be a major barrier unless sanctions are…

Possibly. There does seem to be an uptick in previously unvoicable sentiment that was quickly squashed anywhere it showed on social media. I will say this. My parents went out of their way not to discuss some political events with their children ( communism - different rules apply and kids are dumb ), but in 90s, when similar 'war' raged and newshead was convincingly telling me, who to root for, my father unusually said 'you may want to check how Israel came into existence.' For the longest time, I did not. October surprise was a reason to get some of the dust removed from those books. It is not a good look. One could argue it is worse than US colonization of Indian lands.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#923

Post by dralley »

bbqfog wrote: post #283
dmix wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of any of Israel's wars in recent history none has decimated their regional enemies as much as this. Every way you cut it they are in a much more secure position militarily. Iran (aka Lebanon/Syria) losing so badly is more important than Hamas surviving because that was the cludgle that threatened them from punishing Gaza too harshly (for ex: America pushed Israel very hard not to provoke Lebanon after Oct 7 and we s…

Israel is weaker politically and internationally than it has ever been, dramatically so. It can only have military superiority as long as western nations are supplying it with weapons and political cover.

This is just even remotely close to being true. 1948 was as weak as they have ever been. They're stronger now then they've been in a long time. I wouldn't be surprised to see diplomatic recognition with Saudi Arabia and Lebanon in the next few years.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#924

Post by nearbuy »

wesselbindt wrote: post #664
nearbuy wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes no sense to me. If 8% (171,000 people) of Gaza were to perish, that would leave Gaza with the population it had in 2020. The ceasefire reportedly will have Israel pulling out from Gaza fully and a massive influx of humanitarian aid is expected to enter Gaza. If the ceasefire goes through, the death rate will drop greatly and the population will begin to grow again. As horrible as the destruction has been,…

> If genocide was a goal of any of the Israeli leadership, they abjectly failed This take is incredibly callous. Suppose 8% of everyone you gets killed. This is a shockingly brutal thing to happen to a population. Aside from that you're wrong on a factual level. The "in part" part of the '51 convention is there precisely so people don't say "there's still Jews left so technically the Holocaust wasn't a genocide". The…

But genocidal people are callous! I'm not being callous towards the people living through this. You don't need to convince me it's horrible.

But put yourself in the shoes of a hypothetical evil genocidal person. Assume 8% of Gaza was killed (though this figure is wrong). Having Gaza at it's 2020 population is negligible to them. They were hoping to murder everyone and reclaim their holy land or something and instead (purely from a population standpoint) they're basically just back to the status quo after the truce. Even most Nazis would say they ultimately failed in their genocidal ambitions and they killed two thirds of the Jews in Europe and 90% in Poland.

Second, 8% of Gaza hasn't been killed. By the Gaza health ministry's estimate, about 2% have been killed. Your source arrived at 8% literally by just quadrupling the number without any basis in data from Gaza. This is out of line with all the estimates from Gaza.

> Aside from that you're wrong on a factual level. The "in part" part of the '51 convention is there precisely so...

I'm aware and I didn't say anything factually wrong. Killing just part of a people doesn't legally exempt it from being genocide. But killing part of a people also doesn't imply genocide. Every war has killed part of a people. The Afghanistan and Iraq wars each killed far more people than the Gaza war, but neither is considered genocide.

If Israel were acting like the Nazis, there wouldn't be any Palestinians left in Gaza. They'd all be carpet bombed, shot on sight, or sent to forced labor camps. There's a world of difference between the two.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#925

Post by throwaway7783 »

miracle2k wrote: post #572
Niten wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hamas is a terrorist, Islamist organization with the explicit goal of genocide against Israelis: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/ha... The blood of the Palestinian civilians that Hamas waged war from behind is absolutely on Hamas's hands.

> The blood of the Palestinian civilians that Hamas waged war from behind is absolutely on Hamas's hands. Everyone is responsible for their own actions. Thousands of Palestinians children are dead, and for every single one, Israel could have chosen not to kill them, and the decision to do so is on them.

Yep. Everyone is responsible for their own actions. Hamas could've just surrendered and returned hostages. Before every single Palestinian child lost life, Hamas could've chosen to do that. So its on them

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#926

Post by exe34 »

biminb wrote: post #726
reissbaker wrote: post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The plurality of Israeli Jews are Mizrahi (aka, Jews who never left the Middle East), at 45% of the population [1]. This isn't about Europeans, or even "race": Mizrahi Jews and their Palestinian neighbors are racially indistinguishable. Ashkenazi Jews — that is, Jews who lived in Europe during the Diaspora — make up less than a third of Israeli Jews. [2] Although if you're dead-set on racial essentialism and blood-an…

> Ashkenazi Jews — that is, Jews who lived in Europe during the Diaspora — make up less than a third of Israeli Jews. This isn't true, and the link you posted in support of it contradicts it in the third sentence. 'less than a third of Israeli Jews' excludes Jews who migrated to Israel from the Soviet Union, or from the post-Soviet Union countries. In fact around 20% of the population of Jewish people in Israel arriv…

> In fact around 20% of the population of Jewish people in Israel arrived during the wave of migration which happened in the 90s and early 2000s.

any idea where the millions of Jews from around the middle east disappeared to around the same time?

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#927

Post by tehjoker »

ausbah wrote: post #673
imgabe wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who did Hamas target on October 7? Remind me again? Was that a military music festival they attacked? Hamas hides behind civilians. They don't care about Palestinian lives. The Palestinians apparently don't care since they let Hamas hide behind them and let them remain in power. So, why are we supposed to care?

because Israel is suppose to be a Western style liberal democracy that has things like respect for human rights, not committing war crimes, and other standards that are above a terrorist group like Hamas

To be clear, Hamas is a group fighting for national liberation and calls for democracy in their foundational documents. Every western nation calls freedom fighters "terrorists". They have a legal right to armed resistance.

The only solution to Israel-Palestine is one democratic state with no ethno-national supremacy.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#928

Post by volleyball »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #535
mysecretaccount wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose if we are to digress to the land of "shoulds", Israel should not have decided to delete tens of thousands of Gazan children in the interim. Even if we grant that Israel offered this ceasefire deal in good faith in May, a bungled deal by Qatar/Egypt/Hamas does nothing to justify the ethnic cleansing they conducted in 2024.

[flagged]

>We have absolutely zero credible evidence of tens of thousands of child deaths

We have absolutely tons of credible evidence in fact. In September, The Gaza health ministry published names and details of 34,344 identified dead ( the remaining 7,613 that made the official death toll were unidentified). Of these 11,355 are children below the age of 18. : https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/sep/17/gaza-publishes...

Gaza Health Ministry figures have been generally found to be reliable by international agencies, western governments and journalists from years of experience in previous conflicts and corroborate their own independent investigations and reports. Israel will also have full records of most of these people given that they issue ID cards to Gaza.

Indeed, Studies like the recent one published in Lacet suggest that the actual “traumatic injury deaths” might be closer to double the official ministry figures : https://edition.cnn.com/2025/01/09/middleeast/gaza-death-tol...

I haven't mentioned the thousands of missing buried under rubble or dismembered into multiple pieces or eaten by stray dogs. Or deaths due to starvation and disease (due to Israeli blockade of water and food) and excesss deaths due to denial of access to medical care (again due to the blockade of medicines and due to Israel's deliberate targeting of every hospital in Gaza).

I have yet to read a credible report that doesn't also mention the very high proportion of children (and women and elderly) in the casualty figures.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#929

Post by ChocolateGod »

Supermancho wrote: post #266
ChocolateGod wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> being convicted of humanitarian crimes. The UN and ICC have both shown they're absolutely powerless and useless.

This is not in dispute. None of what I initially posted is in dispute. I would propose this "war" was relatively cheap in Israeli civilian lives lost for what was gained. Demonstrably increasing the reach of Israel action without external repercussions, makes it a security win for Israel. None of the international community will put troops in front of Israel to benefit Palestine. That's worth something to know (conve…

Part of me thinks a Peacekeeping Force (e.g. UN, EU etc) should go into Gaza to control it until a government is formed and stop Hamas from taking back control but I don't see the US not blocking it.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#930

Post by diebeforei485 »

macspoofing wrote: post #803
xg15 wrote: post #21

Everything else aside, this is an absolutely fantastic development and I really hope the ceasefire holds and all hostages are released. I just fear this will cause western media and politicians to and declare the crisis to be over (after it had began on Oct. 7, of course absolutely out of the blue and without any context...) and go back to pretending everything is back to normal. Never mind that Gaza is still in ruin…

This is a one-sided description of the conflict. I am empathetic to Israel, because they also do not have a lot options. Israel, as it it currently constituted (based on 1967 borders) is not a viable state if the West Bank is a hostile entity with a standing army, and funded to a similar extent as Hezbollah. The West Bank bulges into Israel and effectively cuts the country in half and places all strategic targets wit…

Israel repeatedly and systematically kicks Palestinians out of their homes and grants those homes to Jewish settlers.

They are able to do this in large part because Palestine is not a recognized state.

The longer they prevent Palestine from getting statehood, the more dunams of land they can steal.

Post reply on HN