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Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

reuters.com

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Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#521

Post by bawolff »

Cyph0n wrote: post #436
colechristensen wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the major problems is that across the Arab world it is politically useful for internal politics for there not to be peace between Israel and Palestine. It is a very “good” issue for politicians/kings to have an enemy, a struggle for their peoples to be passionate about. Everything that’s being done by the Arab neighbor governments is calculated for their own political benefit. They don’t want peace or a soluti…

Uhh what are you talking about? Egypt & Jordan signed peace treaties last century. And did you somehow miss out on the (still ongoing) Abraham Accords? It’s in fact the complete opposite: Arab rulers and kings want their people to forget about Palestine .

I think you could argue that the political reality has changed a lot over the last 50 years. Having Israel & Palestine fighting was much more useful to surrounding arab states in the early cold war than it is now. In modern times it is very useful to Iran but not so much US-aligned Arab states who want the trade benefits and are allied with the same people Israel is allied with.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#522

Post by tdeck »

halflife wrote: post #486
kevingadd wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think the bombing would have stopped if they took the deal, based on how Israel has historically operated during "ceasefires"? Just curious. I do think they should have taken the deal.

Was Gaza bombed at the 6th of oct? Or before that?

Yes, repeatedly. For example https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_2023_Gaza%E2%80%93Israel...

Here is a longer list where I found this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Israeli_attacks_aga...

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#523

Post by JumpCrisscross »

wl wrote: post #461
boringg wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this is a good development. Everything in this part of the world is on a rinse snd repeat cycle ever since the Assyrians and the Babylonians - it hasn't changed much except maybe its actually a little more humane then it was in the past (which says something). Sorry for the cynical take but this just does a temporary stop.

The conflicts with the Assyrians, Babylonians, and Hittites came down to geopolitical factors that don't exist anymore. Mostly, the Levant separated the empires of Mesopotamia and Anatolia from Egypt. The numerous battles that happened at Meggido occurred because that was a chokepoint of the Way of Horus, the principal land trade route from Egypt specifically and Africa generally to the rest of the world. Besides tra…

> the Levant separated the empires of Mesopotamia and Anatolia from Egypt. The numerous battles that happened at Meggido

The Egyptians were a major force in fomenting regional frictions with Israel. And the Levant remains a crossroad—it borders by land or sea the spheres of influence of the EU, Russia, Turkey, Iran, the Gulf monarchies, Egypt and America.

> convincing rulers in the Levant to ally themselves more closely with them at the expense of the Assyrians

Iran versus the West (and Gulf monarchies) in literally Syria.

The region isn’t pre-destined for chaos. But the geography and history make peace difficult. (There is always another person who can “legitimately” claim some land when you’re sited next to the cradle of civilisation.)

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#524

Post by mysecretaccount »

tptacek wrote: post #350

Hamas was offered a ceasefire under exactly the same terms in May, and refused it. Since then: * Ismail Haniyeh, the leader of the Hamas political wing, was killed in Tehran * Yahyah Sinwar, the leader of the Al-Qassam Brigades, was killed in Gaza * Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of Lebanese Hezbollah, was killed in Beirut * Hashem Safieddine, Nasrallah's successor, was killed a week later * Large swathes of Hezbollah'…

I suppose if we are to digress to the land of "shoulds", Israel should not have decided to delete tens of thousands of Gazan children in the interim.

Even if we grant that Israel offered this ceasefire deal in good faith in May, a bungled deal by Qatar/Egypt/Hamas does nothing to justify the ethnic cleansing they conducted in 2024.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#525

Post by JumpCrisscross »

malandrew wrote: post #507
robertoandred wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going to pretend that Jews haven’t lived there for thousands and thousands of years, before the Arabs arrived?

In 1872, less than 4% of Palestine was Jewish. It was 17% in 1931. 33% in 1948 when Israel was formed. The vast vast majority of Jews in Israel now are Ashkenazi. Ashkenazis are from Khazaria and converted to Judaism between 740 and 920 AD. Even from this population, there is a bottleneck around 600 to 800 years ago where the population was down to 350 individuals [1]. By and large very very few Jews in Palestine/Isr…

> those who are Islamic today but whose genetic ancestors practiced Judaism in the past and lived in the historical kingdom of Israel have far greater claim to the land

Broadly speaking, any philosophy that rests on an oldest-claims-first metric are guaranteed to cause violence.

Information degrades the further we go back; you’re prioritising the wishy-washiest sources of truth. And the nature of human migration and interbreeding means the further you go back, the less likely you are to find genetic ancestors of the people who currently control the land. The people alive on the land you want them off. People with guns.

(The theory is also fundamentally based on the notion that racial migration is wrong. Immigrants to America have less claim than white Americans, who have less claim than natives, except for all the natives who were conquered each other because they moved around too.)

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#526

Post by mupuff1234 »

malandrew wrote: post #515
alex1138 wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, sure, it's all Israel's fault, after the 1200 people slaughtered on October 7

To this day we still have no idea how many of those 1200 people were killed by Hamas and how many were killed by the IDF under the Hannibal Directive. There likely are thousands upon thousands of hours of footage from October 7th from private/personal security cameras and also from the camera equipment on the attack helicopters and tanks. Yet, despite all the footage that likely exists, a total of 46 minutes has been…

And all the hostages are really just kept inside secret IDF facilities, right?

Did some die due you friendly fire? Yes, we know that, but your take is pretty unhinged.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#527

Post by malandrew »

MichaelMoser123 wrote: post #359
culi wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's even a whole Wikipedia article dedicated to documenting Israel's decades long support for Hamas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_support_for_Hamas

https://www.piratewires.com/p/how-wikipedia-s-pro-hamas-edit... - There is even an article that explains exactly how 'a powerful group of editors is hijacking wikipedia, pushing pro-palestinian propaganda, erasing key facts about hamas, and reshaping the narrative around Israel with alarming influence'

To be fair, the JIDF has been astroturfing Wikipedia for far longer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t52LB2fYhoY

Who knows where the balance actually lies, but it's not just pro-Palestinians doing the propaganda here. Israel has engaged in far more propaganda than pretty much everyone (except maybe the United States) since the hasbara policy was first established following the public image fallout from the Sabra and Shatila massacre.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#528

Post by lostlogin »

KikoHeit wrote: post #517
hedora wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are you proposing the deal could be made more fair? Keep in mind: Israel killed 100x more civilians than Palestine during this conflict, and more damage was done to Gaza than any European city during wwii. 90% of the population is displaced. 10% are casualties. Israel intentionally blew up all the civil infrastructure (hospitals, doctors, engineers) first. There are > 17,000 children that have no adults to care f…

[flagged]

This is just such a toxic thread.

What say did the civilian victims in Gaza have in the horrific acts by Hamas?

There isn’t even a glimmer of moderation in anything I see in the argument here.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#529

Post by JumpCrisscross »

bbor wrote: post #439
bigstrat2003 wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like how even in this thread, you have many people - almost certainly very few of whom have no real stake in the fight - bitterly arguing about who is right and wrong (turning it into a fight about US politics as a bonus). Human nature and tribalism really is a terrible thing sometimes. I agree with you, although I certainly hope you and I are wrong. It would be nice to see people let go of past injustices on both…

Not to sound terse, but I think the retort here is clear: morality exists, and it's important that we do our best to follow its guidance. It matters who's right and who's wrong! I absolutely agree that deciding on absolute historical blame for one "side" or another over many generations isn't helpful, but we absolutely need to litigate who's violating whose rights if we want to set things straight. "It's all complica…

> Why not in this case, too?

WWII involved a conflict to unconditional surrender. The equivalent for Israel and Palestine would be letting one state completely destroy the other and then rebuild it in its own image.

Re: Israel, Hamas reach ceasefire deal to end 15 months of war in Gaza

#530

Post by JumpCrisscross »

slt2021 wrote: post #516
rastignack wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> undermining democratic structures Democratic structures like fatah and hamas ?

the difference between terrorists and freedom fighters is temporal. Yesterday they were called terrorists by the mainstream, tomorrow when they win they will be hailed as heroes and freedom fighters. the zionists were also called terrorists by the UK in the beginning, especially when they bombed king david hotel

> the difference between terrorists and freedom fighters is temporal

No, it isn’t. Very few revolutions (i.e power inversions) have succeeded by indiscriminately killing the dominant side’s civilians. That frequency, moreover, goes down over time.

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