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ChatGPT Search

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Re: ChatGPT Search

#921
post #183

If the current iteration of search engines are producing garbage results (due to an influx of garbage + SEO gaming their ranking systems) and LLMs are producing inaccurate results without any clear method proposed to correct them, why would combining the two systems not also produce garbage? The problem I see with search is that the input is deeply hostile to what the consumers of search want. If the LLM's are partic…

Search engines tend to produce neutral garbage, not harmful garbage (i.e. small tidbits of data between an ocean of SEO fluff, rather than completely incorrect facts). LLMs tend to be inaccurate because in an absence of knowledge given by the user, it will sometimes make up knowledge. It's plausible to imagine that they will cover each other's weaknesses: the search engine produces an ocean of mostly-useless data, an…

> Search engines tend to produce neutral garbage, not harmful garbage (i.e. small tidbits of data between an ocean of SEO fluff, rather than completely incorrect facts)

Wasn't google AI surfacing results about making pizza with glue and eating rocks? how is that not harmful garbage?

Re: ChatGPT Search

#922

Every time I see one of these topics, I go ask chat GPT a question to which I know the answer on a topic where I would like to be able to get useful answers to similar questions that I do not know the answer to. This time it was, "Did Paul Edwin Zimmer write a fourth Dark Border novel?" (Real answer: Yes, Ingulf the Mad . You can find the answer on his Wikipedia page.[1]) ChatGPT's[2] answer: "Yes, Paul Edwin Zimmer…

Apparently, you forgot to click the "don't hallucinate as much" checkbox. How silly of you.

Re: ChatGPT Search

#923
Even more than ever, the disconnect between _how_ tools impact the public sphere and _how_ they are selected, curated, and governed is more crucial than ever.

When I say "governed" I mean a broad definition which is perhaps more akin to asking the question: "what kind of influences do we _want_ in play?" Spoiler alert: it isn't only governments that do governance; corporations do it too. Governance is an inevitable result of an organization or social hierarchy acting in the world. The complete opposite (abdication of responsibility) is anarchy. (One more thing that people may confuse: a libertarian philosophy is indeed a governance strategy, even though it is more hands-off than some: it won't work well in a Hobbesian "state of nature" since markets can't function well without some form of power (i.e. authority) that can enforce laws (such as property rights) and reduce violence and threats to manageable levels.)

> We collaborated extensively with the news industry and carefully listened to feedback from our global publisher partners, including Associated Press, Axel Springer, Condé Nast, Dotdash Meredith, Financial Times, GEDI, Hearst, Le Monde, News Corp, Prisa (El País), Reuters, The Atlantic, Time, and Vox Media.

A diversity of information sources is necessary but not sufficient for understanding the world well. It is too early to tell what kind of algorithmic balancing act OpenAI might or might not use for the information sources above. But money talks, so my expectations are not high.

It is not in the public interest to prioritize for-profit "news" organizations such as News Corp. There is just not enough overlap between the Murdochian (Molochian) financial incentives and the needs of an informed citizenry.

Serving the public interest is a waning part of OpenAI's charter, if it remains at all. It is instructive to compare how a U.S. citizen can run/vote for a local school board against what it would take for that same citizen to influence an OpenAI decision. My point: it matters relatively little what OpenAI says; what matters more is their charter, structure, incentives, and mechanisms.

What are the chances that an a-democratic, techno-elite organization (like OpenAI) will lead us boldly and wisely into the future? What about the current slate of western democracies? I'm pessimistic on both. My take is that we don't seem to have the institutions, political will, or understanding to be up to the task of handling AI transitions well. It could go in any number of directions.

Re: ChatGPT Search

#924

Google gives you AI-generated slop anyway, so might as well get it at the source. I already use ChatGPT exclusively when I need information, partly because Google is so bad now, but mostly because it gives me the answer, not just some links that might have the answer. I feel the old web search paradigm is dead, not sure why ChatGPT feels the need to cover that increasingly pointless use case.

Oftentimes I am badgering ChatGPT to give me links so that I can double-check that its answer is correctly grounded in reality. This "Search" seems to be a mode that prioritizes that.

Re: ChatGPT Search

#925

Been thinking about this a lot [1]. Will this fundamentally change how people find and access information? How do you create an experience so compelling that it replaces the current paradigm? The future promised in Star Trek and even Apple's Knowledge Navigator [2] from 1987 still feels distant. In those visions, users simply asked questions and received reliable answers - nobody had to fact-check the answers ever. C…

I agree that this is the core question, but I'd put it as: Who Gets To Decide What Is True? With a search paradigm this wasn't an issue as much, because the answers were presented as "here's a bunch of websites that appear to deal with the question you asked". It was then up to the reader to decide which of those sites they wanted to visit, and therefore which viewpoints they got to see. With an LLM answering the que…

I think this presents an approach: move closer to the search engine model. In both academic writing an news journalism, factual claims try to cite their sources. And you can see this is an approach that some of the chat systems have directionally gone. We don't want to always pedantically cite a reference for every question. But maybe we should? At least at an architectural level and let the UX decide if it should be displayed.

> in the USA, can illegal immigrants vote According Author X in Book Y which studied this topic in depth: foo answer

Re: ChatGPT Search

#926

Phind kinda-sorta did this. For awhile I used it as my primary search, but limitations made me go back to Google. Hopefully ChatGPT's version works very well. Phind was more of a kludge to demonstrate what combining chat AI and search can do.

We're working on a complete redesign of Phind to make it more of a search competitor :) What were the limitations you ran into?

It's too expensive: I'm not opposed to paying for things, but when I looked at the cost structure, I thought I'd quickly exceed the limits. (Back then it was something absurd like 20 searches a day) For personal use, I personally am a super-miser when it comes to subscriptions and this just is too expensive. It would make more sense as part of bundle of other services that I will use.

(For example, I subscribed to Google Music a few years back, then got addicted to add-free YouTube, so I haven't canceled.)

It was too unreliable: I would use it for 4-5 searches, and it would be ultra-responsive and have a great UI. Then, all of a sudden, on a search it would be ultra-slow and fall back to a horrible UI that made absolutely no sense.

Edit:

Google's AI integration is good enough: Shortly after I switched back to Google, they started adding small AI answers at the top of the search. That's good enough for what I'm looking for.

Re: ChatGPT Search

#927
post #880

As a website owner, I have an incentive to provide access to the Google crawler because of the visitors they send me. They've started to show more content directly, but a fair amount of people still click through to websites. It looks to me like ChatGPT Search hides links much more. Is there any incentive for website owners to allow access to ChatGPT?

There's still a link, so from a purely rational perspective the small benefit you get from allowing it is bigger than the zero benefit you get from disallowing it.

The calculation would be different if you had a website large enough that excluding it would measurably make the chatgpt search service worse, which is presumably why OpenAI has been willing to pay some large players.

Re: ChatGPT Search

#928

Been thinking about this a lot [1]. Will this fundamentally change how people find and access information? How do you create an experience so compelling that it replaces the current paradigm? The future promised in Star Trek and even Apple's Knowledge Navigator [2] from 1987 still feels distant. In those visions, users simply asked questions and received reliable answers - nobody had to fact-check the answers ever. C…

> Combining two broken systems - compromised search engines and unreliable LLMs - seems unlikely to yield that vision

Counterpoint: with a chain-of-thought process running atop search, you can potentially avoid much of the meta-search / epistemic hygiene work currently required. If your “search” verb actually reads the top-100 results, runs analyses for a suite of cognitive biases such as partisanship, and gives you error bars / warnings on claims that are uncertain, the quality could be dramatically improved.

There are already custom retrieval/evaluation systems doing this, it’s only a matter of a year or two before it’s commoditized.

The concern is around OpenAI monetization, do they eventually start offering paid ads? This could be fine if the unpaid results are great, a big part of why the web is perceived to be declining is link-spam that Google doesn’t count as an ad.

My prediction would be that there is a more subtle monetization channel; companies that can afford to RAG their products well and share those indexes with AI search providers will get better results. RAG APIs will be the new SEO.

Re: ChatGPT Search

#929

Been thinking about this a lot [1]. Will this fundamentally change how people find and access information? How do you create an experience so compelling that it replaces the current paradigm? The future promised in Star Trek and even Apple's Knowledge Navigator [2] from 1987 still feels distant. In those visions, users simply asked questions and received reliable answers - nobody had to fact-check the answers ever. C…

I think the promise of search was to be able to do confidence-ranked "grep" on the internet. Unfortunately we departed from this, but it's what I desperately want.

Re: ChatGPT Search

#930

Been thinking about this a lot [1]. Will this fundamentally change how people find and access information? How do you create an experience so compelling that it replaces the current paradigm? The future promised in Star Trek and even Apple's Knowledge Navigator [2] from 1987 still feels distant. In those visions, users simply asked questions and received reliable answers - nobody had to fact-check the answers ever. C…

>change how people find and access information As someone who has been using google for search basically constantly since 1995, I've switched probably 90%+ of what normally would have been google searches over to Perplexity (which gives me references to web pages alongside answers to my questions, to review source materials) and ChatGPT (for more just answers I can verify without source). The remaining searches have…

In my experience Perplexity very frequently cites websites that neither support or refute what Perplexity is claiming.
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