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The rise of never-ending job interviews

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Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#921

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretend there's a Programming Quotient (PQ) which is like IQ. Let's say Google would like candidates with PQ>130 with 95% confidence. Google has an error with std. div. of 15 points in measurement of PQ in jobs interviews. Google then needs to set the hiring bar at 160 PQ in order to get those candidates. This: - screens most qualified candidates out; but - most candidates who do screen in are qualified Statistics wo…

I very much agree with everything you wrote, except for the arrogance bit. Many actually suffer from the impostor syndrome and just a few I could call arrogant. I'm sorry you had to deal with them but please don't generalize from just a few.

Outwards arrogance is often the manifestation of impostor syndrome, but I digress.

Corporate arrogance isn't a property of individual personalities. Most Googlers are perfectly nice people. The Google corporate culture is a whole is rooted in a deep superiority complex and dripping with arrogance. Google believes it knows better than its users, and that translates to all aspects of product design. If you moved those same engineers to a different company, you wouldn't have the same behavior.

I'll also mention that each organizational design has upsides and downsides.

This culture seems to work well in Google's early markets (e.g. search) where users are statistics, and where most problems are hard algorithmic problems, and users are secondary. It has upsides in B2C markets like Google Docs or Android. It crashes-and-burns in a lot of B2B markets, like Workspace or GCP, where customers have a high degree of expertise which ought to be respected.

I'll mention a lot of fintech companies, as well as elite universities, have a similar culture. Those are domains where it leads to success as well.

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#922

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll just +1 this as a datapoint. I am not looking externally until I'm sure I'm done at AWS. I've done 80+ interviews here, and I'm consistently amazed by what drives people to say "The candidate wasn't up to the coding bar". As far as I can tell, you are almost never up to the coding bar. I think we interview so many people just to remind ourselves that if we leave, we aren't getting back in. Just to head off the "…

I remember seeing a comment about Amazon once claiming in order to be seriously considered for a role, you have to be better than 50% of the existing team you’d be coming onto.

Inside that is called raising the bar. Often times I would personally aim to find people who were 50% better than the best person I knew in that role. Often times I would still incline on people during their POD. I would just strongly incline with 'raises the bar' on folks who met that rare exception. Honestly I was on the Dave Clark side of the business and we were much more chill about things vs the Jassy/AWS cult. Those dudes might as well be from the moon. So take my statement with a grain of salt. We worked for the same company... but we also didn't, Amazon is just that big.

I had plenty of times where an entire hiring pod would incline on a candidate because they had the soft skills we were looking for in that role and we knew we could sharpen their technical skillset in house. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to work at a FAANG... you just have to be interviewed by a team that is hungry and likes you.

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#923

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That confirms that we shouldn't bother if we value our time and energy.

Many people apply to all the FANGS, since the interviewing skillset needed is similar. Moreover, you can reapply every six months. In result, this gives you perhaps 5-10 lottery tickets every year, which means it's very feasible to get in within a year or two (or three).

I think i may have given the impression that it’s 10% by pure chance which it most def isn’t. There’s certainly some randomness in the system but if someone is in the bottom 50% by skill they can probably apply like 100 times and still fail every single one.

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#924

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never written a sort from scratch since my college days, over 30 years ago. Also never had a job interview that asked me do to so, or any other coding questions. I'm planning more for retirement than a next job at this point, but I shake my head at what my younger colleagues need to go through these days for the opportunity to write JavaScript with IDEs that do most of the work for you.

I had one interview where they asked me to write out some fairly complex SQL joins on a white board. This was for a Java dev gig, NOT a SQL admin gig. I decided to really lean into how awful it was by putting in notations for three different implementations (Oracle, MSSQ, and Postgres). I was subtly making fun of them but they didn't pick up on it. I got the offer and took it because I do contracting and had just une…

SQL I can do in my sleep. Still haven't ever needed to write sorts (other than ORDERY BY).

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#925

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that lawyers have to pass the California bar once in order to get licensed; we SWEs have to pass the "bar" every time we look for a new job.

From what I've heard, the bar is much harder than SWE interviews.

Oh, I'm not about to claim that these licensing exams people in other professions take once and then never worry about again (bar exam, medical boards, etc.) compare in difficulty to a typical SWE interview.

But, here me out here:

Suppose the CA bar exam were changed in format to be more like a SWE interview. That is, instead of being a 2 day affair consisting of 5 essays of 60 minutes apiece, a 90-minute performance test[0], and 200 multiple choice questions, let's shrink it down to a format that fits in one day and under 5 hours.

Now, let's nix the performance test right away, because it would be incredibly difficult to shoehorn in any kind of real, practical task in under 90 minutes.

According to [1], it looks like 100 multiple choice questions are allocated 3 hours worth of time. So, basically, our cut down format could be 100 multiple choice and 2-3 essays. So, that's about half the amount of testing that's done currently, more or less.

Now, if you have half the amount of testing available, you have a choice: you can cover half as many areas of law, you can cut down the depth of coverage in each area, or some combination of the two. In any case, what you've done is increase the variability in the test. In other words, passing is now more likely to be influenced by exactly which version of the test you get.

If there's an area of law you're weak in (say, bird law), it might not even be covered. Conversely, if you're a real expert in bird law, you won't get as much of a chance to shine in the new format. That means our new format both allows somewhat more marginal candidates to pass, and gives up some sensitivity in detecting people who are really, really good.

So, in summary, the new format omits any sort of practical task, increases the variability of the test, increases the probability that marginal candidates will get through, and decreases the ability to distinguish truly excellent candidates.

Seems to me that's sounding more and more like a typical day-long SWE interview, isn't it?

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[0]: Interestingly, this is essentially a work sample test, which is the thing proven to correlate best with job performance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performance_test_(bar_exam)

[1]: https://www.tjsl.edu/academics/bar-prep/california-bar-exam

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#926
Do diversity hires have never-ending job interviews? Or are they just streamlined in?

It would be considered oppression if black candidate where given as many interviews as white candidates.

Actually it is a serious question. When diversity is apparent what is the difference in the number of interviews required?

Are white and asian males more scrutinized to make up for the logical shortfall of affirmative action hires that just get to mess stuff up while the asians clean up their mess?

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#928

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that lawyers have to pass the California bar once in order to get licensed; we SWEs have to pass the "bar" every time we look for a new job.

Lawyers have to pay dues yearly and take a certain number of CRE (continuing education requirement) hours every year to maintain their license.

SWEs have to learn new things every day to keep their jobs. But, this is kind of stretching the metaphor past its breaking point, really.

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#929
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These numbers are misleading af. Most of those applications are just spam, not really relevant and never get read by any human. I’ve done ~150 interviews for backend roles at google and based on my experience 4 years ago if you make it to onsite you have 5-10% of getting an offer

You've been interviewed 150 times to get in? Or are in and have interviewed 150 candidates?

Yes

Re: The rise of never-ending job interviews

#930
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet if they ask you for an answer to a quirky question like "why are manhole covers round?", they expect a clever answer like "they can't fall in", rather than a pedestrian answer like "well, probably they just started making them that shape for some simple production reason, and then everyone else just kinda of did the same thing because it worked."

What? Manhole covers aren't round. Silly americans. http://lh4.ggpht.com/_LWPSf1_ugFI/TA4tx-22QRI/AAAAAAAAFx0/T1...

And look at that, it's got a hinge on it, so it can't fall in. And it can't be stolen or misplaced.
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