Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home • Hacker News Board

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#921

Post by livueta » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:19 PM UTC

vsareto wrote: post #847

livueta wrote: post #640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience[0] that's not really true. This comment[1] is pretty on the money. Being a NEET is not a vacation, and playing video games all day is often a means of avoiding confronting the realization that you're a waste of oxygen. Many have substance co-dependencies that function similarly. It's the sort of life that sounds cool as an overworked wagie but gets stale rather quickly, plus a massive helping of sunk…

I mean, there's people who barely do any work while pulling down a decent salary, so I'm not sure who's really the bigger waste of oxygen compared to someone who sits around all day on games. (personally, I disagree with the 'waste of oxygen' viewpoint - life has innate value especially since we're the only intelligent species we know of, even if they aren't valuable in a capitalistic sense). But it's weird we prefer…

> life has innate value especially since we're the only intelligent species we know of, even if they aren't valuable in a capitalistic sense

I personally agree with you in general, but I'm talking about a self-image formed through extensive socialization to the idea that work == value. Even if in some abstract sense all intelligent life is a gift, the "waste of oxygen" label starts feeling appropriate as your cohort materially advances without you. I guess I was unclear in that I wasn't going for lifestyle judgmentalism; more trying to explain the negative self-image that's easily developed given capitalist socialization and a lack of capitalist success.

> It can be uncomfortable, sure, but if you can get past that...

Again, I agree in general, and there's obviously a spectrum of how impacted any particular individual is going to be, but I think you're underestimating the degree of psychological scarring that can be built up over a long time in the pit. That step of admitting that you're the problem is one many fight against for years, which happens to be linked to self-deception around how fun/fulfilling the consumption-only life is. I guess I'm glad that you've got as hopeful of an outlook on this as you do, but I want to temper that a little with the understanding that "well, just go get a job lol" is akin to "well, just stop being sad lol" - in both cases there's probably a lot going on that simple willpower alone isn't going to fix.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#922

Post by geekster777 » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:25 PM UTC

TrispusAttucks wrote: post #673

flippinburgers wrote: post #511

Men are not doing as well as women in school. If you look in the wrong places on the internet, media, or daily life, all you see is negativity towards masculinity. In addition, there doesn't appear to be any broad social system that is geared towards supporting men. The fact that men don't tend to be a socially adept doesn't help. This all feels like the perfect storm and there are plenty of people who act like "men…

At a recent scholarship awards ceremony I attended the woman gathered much more scholarships than the men. Of course they probably very well deserved it. However there were many women-only scholarships that I am assuming were setup to increase college admissions of women. Which is of course also perfectly okay. However, there is a huge growing gender gap [1] in college admissions that favors women. If an equality pro…

From what I've seen, minority targeted scholarships tend to be created by minorities rather than the college itself. For example, the Women in Computing group will organize and fundraise for a scholarship towards their school. A successful black man may donate money back to the school with the stipulation that it goes towards helping other black kids like him. The school itself is happy to look progressive and point to all its targeted scholarships, but I'm curious how many of them are explicitly created by the school itself.

It changes the narrative around financial aid when you view it as communities putting in the work to ease the burdens of folks who are like them. Maybe it says something about how difficult it is to "make it" for them that they're disproportionately more willing to donate back to their community.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#923

Post by Grazester » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:27 PM UTC

twh270 wrote: post #868

throoooway wrote: post #757

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dreading this when my sons grow up. “Hey, society and the media and politicians, institutions have all decided your nature is a problem and that you are assumed guilty, to be viewed with suspicion at all times. Oh and for some reason, you should still want to support this structure with your hard work and taxes, and shut up and never mention it.” Honestly - I don’t know why I would tell him he should accept this soci…

Taking a victim stance isn't helpful. Whoever you are and whatever you do, there's always going to be some group that doesn't like you or "your kind". Running away doesn't teach your kids how to face this; it just changes where they'll face it.

Leaving the country now potentially makes them the target of the anti-expats group.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#924

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:28 PM UTC

deadite wrote: post #528

ravenstine wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Often the man claiming that men don’t care about a woman’s education, goes on to say that what matters is that the woman knows, for example, how to cook. That, too, has never made sense to me. I live in a country where for the childless, eating out good healthy food is not appreciably more expensive than cooking at home, and a woman who chooses to take advantage of that and use her valuable time for other pursuits,…

>then what exactly is a man buying into with a relationship with said woman? Jack Donovan has a great corollary to this in "The Way Of Men" where he says that society is nowadays trying to "fix" men as if they are "imperfect women."

[deleted]

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#925

Post by runawaybottle » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:35 PM UTC

Mirioron wrote: post #697

runawaybottle wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s also a form of perfectionism. I deal with exactly what you are describing with a family member of mine. A part of his problem is that, I shit you not, I sincerely believe he thinks he is too good for a labor/service job, or community college, or coursera, or the gym, dating someone not perfect, etc. It didn’t go his way for so long, but the ego is still there. And what is the ego exactly if not an intense defens…

The issue with these timelines is: "is it worth the effort?" The more effort you have to put in the more desirable it has to be. Perhaps the 5+ year timeline means that what they want falls into the "it's not worth the effort" category. I'd like to know Mandarin, but I don't think it would be worth the effort to learn the language. Maybe if I already knew the symbols I would feel otherwise.

If it’s not worth the effort, then you must shed the entitlement factor. If it’s not worth the effort, how can you still feel you deserve those things? We’re all human, and we all know having a career, an education, a life partner, and a family are worth it. So, who are we kidding?

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#926

Post by i_am_new_here » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:54 PM UTC

cjohnson318 wrote: post #669

88840-8855 wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a good friend who is working in HR. She used to be in hiring, now she is in the talent and development stream. We are not in the same company. A few weeks ago I was speaking about my impression that my company is forcing women into promotions and positions just for the sake of reaching targets. I said that it felt unfair towards male colleagues. Her reply was something like this: Men had the advantage for thou…

In the shale boom of the mid 2000's, Halliburton hired a lot of women engineers right out of college. My understanding (from male colleagues) was that if they had the minimum requirements and had no red flags, then they were rubber stamped. The result was that they were all tough as nails and ran a rig as well as any man. There was literally no difference between them and their male counterparts. As others have obser…

> Women, which are tough as nails and run [oil] rigs

What desireable women ;)

> with _litterally_ no difference to their male ... counterpart.

Counterpart... grrr

> As others have observed

I also use that, to increase credibility, but usually only in very small group settings.

> Capability is uniformly distributed

Between man and women... wow: No it's not!

Are you of Jewish decent? - Sometimes I have this "out of this[my] world encounters" ... someone just trying to play others and then I think: What was that? How could she/he be like that?

> Opportunity is not

Yeah, at Halliburton it's not.

Good that companies that thrive (Halliburton during the shale boom) can do anything they like (hire women) and still thrive...

... maybe a bit less, but who cares?

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#927

Post by geekster777 » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 6:18 PM UTC

LoveMortuus wrote: post #804

TrispusAttucks wrote: post #673

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At a recent scholarship awards ceremony I attended the woman gathered much more scholarships than the men. Of course they probably very well deserved it. However there were many women-only scholarships that I am assuming were setup to increase college admissions of women. Which is of course also perfectly okay. However, there is a huge growing gender gap [1] in college admissions that favors women. If an equality pro…

Aren't women-only projects and things inherently discriminatory, since it disallows participation or use based on gender? I know that whenever I've seen women only projects I did feel a sting in my heart, because what if I wanted to participate? The only way to be able to participate would be to abandon manhood and transition into womanhood... Where as there are no 'men-only' projects and things. Not that there shoul…

Unrelated to your larger point, your financial goal is a good one. The FI/RE community is an odd one, but very welcoming and supportive overall. I'm currently on a similar path, and as I've started to near the end I've found that I needed non-financial goals to get me sanely through the journey. Planning for a life where you don't have to work is wonderful, but the reality is that it leads to a lot of free time - if you find the void hard to fill now it'll be miserable then.

I say this because you said that being without a life goal was so difficult that you attempted to take your own life. Just setting an (often achievable) financial goal is kicking that can down the road. It's something I fear for myself quite a bit, so I've been picking up lots of hobbies to plant the seeds for when I have an abundance of free time. For me, this is a combination of travel, camping, guitar, surfing, reading (hopefully one day writing), and most recently geocaching. Each hobby has its own set of goals that I hope can occupy me indefinitely.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#928

Post by MyHypatia » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 6:33 PM UTC

marcellus23 wrote: post #904

dragonwriter wrote: post #751

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > Men are not doing as well as women in school. > Schools are not performing as well for men as they do for women. Maybe men are just not inherently less suited to academic success, which is being made more clear now that systematic discrimination in their favor isn’t preventing equal-terms comparisons with women in that domain. Equality of opportunity doesn't mean equality of outcomes, after all.

If that were true then why wouldn’t you want to change academia so that it works well for both men and women? Wouldn’t that be the obvious ethical path to take?

I agree with you that changing academia so it works well for both men and women is the right thing to do. Find ways to help men improve reading and writing skills so they aren't left behind, and help women improve math and computer skills so they aren't left behind. The purpose of education is to uplift. Sometimes we get too caught up in it as a competition.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#929

Post by holoduke » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 7:07 PM UTC

alxwu wrote: post #452

perplex wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For some people (myself included) Game/TV addiction is a real problem and can have drastic affects on ones life. (It did for me throughout my 20s/30s). For others it doesn't seem to have negative side effects. My life was held back by time spent gaming for so long and later in life I realized TV was doing the same. Moderation in all things right? For me it is easier to cut them out period. I'm happier and have a far…

I'm in my mid 30s and I am going through this addiction of reddit/youtube and other distractions for the past 10 years. I've always known how harmful it is and I want to change. Do you have any tips for someone like me? I was still able to become an engineer, but I feel like I can be better. Like everyone else my motivation and drive was so much higher when I was younger. I might be using these distractions as a form…

It's not easy for sure. In my case I found a girlfriend and started living somewhere else. So another change in life helps a lot. Maybe you could search for something like that. Go live in another city albeit for a temporary period. A pet programming job might also help. You might be still behind the pc. But at least it is not wasted with just gaming, movies etc. You could also try to search for a coach/psychologist who can support you going to the change process. Go for it. You will be rewarded.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#930

Post by runamok » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 7:11 PM UTC

citizenpaul wrote: post #901

buildingmateri wrote: post #710

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially a problem because for almost all men a career and supporting family (maybe the hardest thing to figure out in life) is non optional, whereas half the female friends I have from college have abandoned careers to saddle up to a breadwinner ... I mean I kind of want that option but men don't really have it. Does anyone ever really discuss this social reality that makes it different for men v women in real wor…

I’ve attempted this discussion all over the internet. It does not go well would be a tame statement. There seems to be a pervasive belief that men do have this option equally available to them. Only half? My exp is more like 80% shack up with a breadwinner. Even with half of women that means max 25% of men get this option.

I mean if you are calling it "shacking up" that might explain why it doesn't go well.

I don't think most would say men have it equally available but I'd certainly say it's more available than it was in the past just like women having jobs that can allow them to be the primary breadwinner are much more prevalent in 2021 than it was in 1981.

I do know some male stay at home dads but not as many.