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Midjourney Medical

midjourney.com

911–920 of 927 posts

Re: Midjourney Medical

#911

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly my concern too. There are techniques like synthetic aperture focusing which can correct some of these errors to some degree but they're complex and have harsh limits of their own. It's always better to not have the errors introduced by the distance and water volume in the first place. The thing which makes no sense about this entire approach is we already can not have those errors. I've been looking up releva…

Right, this is where I'm at, in trying to 'strong-man' it. CT is great as a source and a detector, but when you add multiple detectors and can use scattering to your advantage, we're able to lower rad dosage for comparable images. So, yeah, what if each receiver is able to handle the ultrasound scattering better than we thought. That's the only way this thing adds up in my head.

> what if each receiver is able to handle the ultrasound scattering better

Yes, that's the most charitable 'Steel-man' possibility I've still got open. Still a lot of unknowns but I suspect they're just unknown to me and probably already known to those in the field. It's not like this off-axis receivers concept is remotely new in computational imaging. So I went looking for priors and proxies that use the same idea - and found a bunch. There are dual-wand, dual-leaf and quad-leaf 'flex-jaw' arrays that basically just add extra receivers on tilting 'wings' to conform to cylindrical and non-uniform shapes. They don't seem to be used much for medical imaging but are common in things like metallurgical inspection, materials analysis, etc.

I'm still unclear why they aren't used much in medical but I suspect it has to do with the fact that medical ultrasound is highly constrained. It can work well in fat and soft-tissues but bone absorbs and reflects ultrasound fiercely and different tissue densities respond differently. This makes off-axis receivers likely to be occluded, reducing how often it contributes to improving imaging.

My biggest question about the MJ product hypothesis isn't whether it can work, it's whether it will work meaningfully better than easier, cheaper surface-contact methods using the same transducer chips. If it's true that additional off-axis receivers do provide increased value for medical imaging, then it should be even better to do that with a flexible semi-arc of chips that can directly touch the skin. I just don't see how any off-axis benefit can overcome the drastic signal degradation introduced by moving the chips 200-400 times farther way and trying to correct for the turbulent hurricane of that huge liquid volume.

Re: Midjourney Medical

#912
post #251
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not putting my head under. How do we know this won't cause aneurysms? Damage eyes and ears? Getting a medical device approved takes time because of concerns like this.

From my understanding of the post, the waves that are created are smaller than light waves, and there's no evidence that light waves, sound waves or sub-sonic waves have any aneurysm-causing effects. (I researched more and found in the video a value) The waves are 50 nanometres, and this is basically the equivalent of having a full body ultrasound. We've been doing baby ultrasounds for decades with no ill effects, so…

Ultrasonic wavelengths are orders of magnitude longer than light.

Re: Midjourney Medical

#913
post #856
post #806

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you could dramatically reduce cost and improve availability, would this still be a problem? What's the limiting factor that prevents medical imaging from getting cheaper and more available?

The machines are expensive (millions range per MRI scanner), staffing the machines nearly around the clock with highly educated technologists, repair/maintenance of expensive specialized machinery, radiologists to read each scan (esp with a current shortage), means it’s very expensive to set up and run an imaging center. Opening and owning an imaging center used to be seen as fairly lucrative. and many radiology priv…

I feel like the first part of this explanation reminds me of stories about mainframe computers in the 1950-70s - highly expensive special gear that needs special operators. Is there something about the physics of the process standing in the way?

Re: Midjourney Medical

#914

I have a mixed response: 1. It kind of makes sense that an AI imagery company would apply that to other novel applications of imagery and computing and try to do something cool with it. 2. Midjourney as a brand is all over the place and this feels - off , somehow. I think from a branding pov they should have just started a different company with a different name. Perhaps a single image-focused umbrella company named…

The branding choice is crazy to me. “Midjourney” is pretty much synonymous with “generated images that aren’t real”. Which is the opposite of what you want when it comes to medical imagery and data.

Re: Midjourney Medical

#915

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insurance companies dislike paying for procedures instead of passively collecting premiums. Not sure how you missed that.

Exposing asymptomatic potential issues leads to medical care that often does not meet out standards for medical tradeoffs. Chemo is nasty, even the most minor surgery has risks. We endure the risks because we are addressing either major health issues or other dire uncertainties. Using our heavy duty treatments for issues without any symptoms at all would, normally, cause the patient suffering in excess of what would…

Well, you've reduced a rational position to absurdity here. The concern isn't that someone is going to require chemotherapy. The concern is that an asymptomatic condition will go undisclosed until it is symptomatic, at which point preventative treatments are futile.

Even if we accepted your example, there is a fundamental inconsistency, since doctors in America regularly prescribe very serious drug interventions for patients who essentially self-diagnose for being neurotic/adhd/etc.--actually a much worse problem than the one you're so eager to curtail.

Re: Midjourney Medical

#916

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they have a picture showing a higher resolution Ultrasound CT result than a 1978 MRI! Surely that's important and useful information by which we can judge their product. https://cdn.midjourney.com/static/medical/media/first_mri_vs... From: https://www.midjourney.com/medical/scan_gallery

I did see that. And it does look better. Okay, I'm sold! Sign me up for my spa visit including avocado facial peel, genital waxing and computed axial tomography ultrasound. More seriously, I assumed that CT Ultrasound image is from Butterfly's actual FDA-approved handheld medical device, not the Midjourney 360 submerged ring - as there's no evidence that is working. Since the Midjourney site has no helpful informatio…

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Re: Midjourney Medical

#917
post #423

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It's a controversial and complicated idea. The downside, and the reason why most doctors do not recommend full body scans, is that every human body is a bit weird and there will almost always be something "wrong" that will be visible in a full body scan. This can lead to unnecessary testing, anxiety, and even unnecessary procedures. Many of these oddities flagged by the scan would never have caused any actual issues…

Exactly - I had switched to a one meal per day setup and have been mostly following it for a few years. Then after a routine “heart health” check all my indicators were super out of whack - the doctors thought I was on my deathbed - but I am perfectly happy pain free, in shape, physically active person… Then _i myself_ had to dig into all these tests and figure out that they were measuring the wrong thing - since the…

What parameters were higher than expected? The critical ones, glucose, electrolytes, lipids should stay low when fasting.

Re: Midjourney Medical

#918
post #392

I watched the video first without reading the text and thought, wow, Midjourney has gotten really good, they generated debris in the water exactly like what would happen in real life if the water is reused enough. Then I started reading the text, and realize it's not an ad for their video generating tool? Cool if each of it can do ~120000 scans per-month. But if I have to step in to a tank filled with debris and disc…

water filtration seems like the easy part

Well... they certainly did not show that in the video.

Oh and yeah, there are more difficult problem. For example, if the platform moves to lower/lift people in or out the water, some people will probably fail to remain still or even start panic. This might effect the final image.

Not sure if Midjourney has way to counter that. Great if they do.

Re: Midjourney Medical

#919

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exposing asymptomatic potential issues leads to medical care that often does not meet out standards for medical tradeoffs. Chemo is nasty, even the most minor surgery has risks. We endure the risks because we are addressing either major health issues or other dire uncertainties. Using our heavy duty treatments for issues without any symptoms at all would, normally, cause the patient suffering in excess of what would…

Well, you've reduced a rational position to absurdity here. The concern isn't that someone is going to require chemotherapy. The concern is that an asymptomatic condition will go undisclosed until it is symptomatic, at which point preventative treatments are futile. Even if we accepted your example, there is a fundamental inconsistency, since doctors in America regularly prescribe very serious drug interventions for…

There exist both type I and type II errors, yes. But it's not absurdity, the South Korean Thyroid Cancer "epidemic" is one of the classic examples of the dangers of using traditional treatments on the lower-severity cases more advanced scanning uncovers. It was a public health disaster with lifelong consequences for those impacted, and was, legitimately, people getting cancer treatment for small cancers so harmless that they would have died of something else before becoming symptomatic.

Re: Midjourney Medical

#920

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not so worried about the data being useful, I'm worried about the machine actually working. I mean, with that much data, you may be able to understand under what timeframe a tumor is actually of concern. What's so bad about having some false positives?

> What's so bad about having some false positives? Having invasive surgery. Undergoing chemotherapy. The former is bad, the latter is basically a 'lets hope it kills the cancer before it kills you' situation. It's arguable which one is worse, but I'd rather not have to ever partake in either of them again.

Why would you jump from an ultrasound to chemotherapy? It's not meant to be a definitive diagnosis, it's just an early screening process...
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